how to buff shoalin and debuff dwarv ...
Its better to nerf other areas. Like for example the demoman, i dont understand why hes an 2.0 grenadier :)
This argument is along the same lines as the old "Annihilator is no better than an archer" classic. When TF2 receive a third Demoman, can equip him with sword and defense mods, and somehow gain the ability to bubble, beer, and scroll him you may have a point. Until then, I'm afraid the comparison is meaningless.
For more info on why you're also wrong about the Sniper, see my previous posts on the subject. Spoiler: It's not the Sniper damage alone that's the problem -- it's the perfect synergy between 430 Sniper damage and 390 Soldier/Pyro damage.
I've always thought that taking away his lob would be a decent nerf for the demoman. That, combined with the respawn costing an AP and a melee knockback for the soldier would probably be enough.
I said earlier that I felt the respawn costing an AP was part of what I think would be adequate TF nerfage, but still needed a lil sumpin-sumpin.
I don't want big differences, so this soldier melee knockback seems to fit the ticket. I'll endorse this.
And to be explicit - I do not agree with demoman nerfs. Leave him be.
This argument is along the same lines as the old "Annihilator is no better than an archer" classic. When TF2 receive a third Demoman, can equip him with sword and defense mods, and somehow gain the ability to bubble, beer, and scroll him you may have a point. Until then, I'm afraid the comparison is meaningless.
true, but still :)
For more info on why you're also wrong about the Sniper, see my previous posts on the subject. Spoiler: It's not the Sniper damage alone that's the problem -- it's the perfect synergy between 430 Sniper damage and 390 Soldier/Pyro damage.
i've read that post. i've read all X times you've said it. I didnt even know this synergy until you said it. It have never happend to me ONCE (and even if it happend, it had such a little impact i just didnt remember it). And i've faced a couple of good players with both CL and DWs. I guess my playstyle just prevents it from happening or i've just been "lucky". Thats why i doubt it will change anything.
double post
make dwarf grenadier attack be blocked by units no more lobing
reduce Paladin aura stacking
reduce movement bonus on shaolin map
I think the respawn token costing an AP would be a fairly small nerf, not enough by itself. Soldier knockback in melee range would be a much larger nerf, and combined I think it would be enough, maybe slightly too much. Eliminating Demoman lob would be too big of a deal, Demomen are really important to the team.
I dont know about the sniper myself. When they are good, they are *really* annoying, but there are other times/situations when all they do is crowd you and increase the risk of AOE. Because of this, I really have no idea what Trip's proposed change would do to balance.
Why dont we throw heavy's double damage in melee on the table as well? That would be a big nerf, but what I like about it is that new players dont know about this feature anyway.
For more info on why you're also wrong about the Sniper, see my previous posts on the subject. Spoiler: It's not the Sniper damage alone that's the problem -- it's the perfect synergy between 430 Sniper damage and 390 Soldier/Pyro damage.
i've read that post. i've read all X times you've said it. I didnt even know this synergy until you said it. It have never happend to me ONCE (and even if it happend, it had such a little impact i just didnt remember it). And i've faced a couple of good players with both CL and DWs. I guess my playstyle just prevents it from happening or i've just been "lucky". Thats why i doubt it will change anything.
More likely it's because you generally play against TF2 as Dwarves.
The Paladin's aura is just enough to break this Sniper synergy, since it makes otherwise perfect combos totaling 800 or 1200 damage insufficient to take out most units. As TF2 and DW appear to be roughly comparable in strength at the moment, the fact that a small Sniper nerf probably wouldn't affect the Dwarven matchup is probably a good thing. Consider this reason number X+1 why it just makes sense.
I think the respawn token costing an AP would be a fairly small nerf, not enough by itself. Soldier knockback in melee range would be a much larger nerf, and combined I think it would be enough, maybe slightly too much. Eliminating Demoman lob would be too big of a deal, Demomen are really important to the team.
I dont know about the sniper myself. When they are good, they are *really* annoying, but there are other times/situations when all they do is crowd you and increase the risk of AOE. Because of this, I really have no idea what Trip's proposed change would do to balance.
Why dont we throw heavy's double damage in melee on the table as well? That would be a big nerf, but what I like about it is that new players dont know about this feature anyway.
I think the respawn costing an AP would be a rather large nerf, personally. It's so useful for a surprise counterattack, for saving your medic and stomping an agressor etc, and the AP cost would largely stop this, making TF2 more prone to aggression and less able to mount a counterattack without taking some losses. I personally believe te soldier melee knockback would be a smaller nerf that the AP cost, although that may be down to how I tend to neglect the soldier and rarely find an opportunity to use him in melee. Adding in a demoman nerf is going too far, yes, but I don't think that by itself it'd be too big of a deal as you're suggesting.
I think the sniper nerf would be a pretty big deal, but I think it'd be a litlle to unpredictable as a change to risk implementing; after all, TF2 were probably one of the weaker teams before the sniper buff, and now they're unarguably in the top 2.
It seems to be the newer players who have most trouble with TF2, so I don't see why them not noticing a change in the Heavy really a good thing. Heavy double damage at melee does seem to be a tad too powerful, the heavy does seem a tad too powerful in general, but I think nerfs like are being proposed to the heavy could turn it from arguably TF2's strongest unit to one its worse. The low initial damage of the heavy means that for it to be effective over a multi-turn attack (the only way you can use it effectively in most cases), it has to have strong HP. Hence I don't like the HP reduction suggestion - I also don't like it because it'd make TF2 even more squishy, which isn't a good way to balance them. Reducing the heavy's attack would just push it under the limit; it just wouldn't do enough damage to be effective. And taking away his double melee damage would make pretty much ensure his demise against an aggressive melee unit. I can reluctantly accept that the Heavy may need a small nerf, but I can't see a nerf that won't push him over the edge.
More likely it's because you generally play against TF2 as Dwarves.
The Paladin's aura is just enough to break this Sniper synergy, since it makes otherwise perfect combos totaling 800 or 1200 damage insufficient to take out most units. As TF2 and DW appear to be roughly comparable in strength at the moment, the fact that a small Sniper nerf probably wouldn't affect the Dwarven matchup is probably a good thing. Consider this reason number X+1 why it just makes sense.
yes.
its just that i havent really noticed it with CL either. Thats why i dont think it will really solve anything
Just thought I'd mention that if you nerf sniper damage by ANY amount, he cannot kill a vanilla unit in 5 AP when he isnt upgraded or 4 AP with upgrade. I've made quite a few kills like this when the opponent has no healer out.
Just throwing out another nerf for the dwarves. Remove annhilators debuff instead of nerfing it but buff his hp to 800.
I think the respawn token costing an AP would be a fairly small nerf, not enough by itself. Soldier knockback in melee range would be a much larger nerf, and combined I think it would be enough, maybe slightly too much. Eliminating Demoman lob would be too big of a deal, Demomen are really important to the team.
starting to like the respawn nerf aswell. It will stop them from making a good counterattack if they want to save a important unit aswell. Forces them to do a decision instead of having the luxury of both.
Demoman and grenadier should keep their lob attack, its their thing!
Could give solider a melee knockback and a melee weakness. But i think giving sniper a melee weakness is better. It just sounds odd for having such high dmg at melee range. This will reduce some of tf2 burst dmg on their side of the field. Spys, heavys and sniper gives loads of melee burst dmg. Making it a little easier to go to the enemy field, even if the melee weakness will rarely matter :)
I dont know about the sniper myself. When they are good, they are *really* annoying, but there are other times/situations when all they do is crowd you and increase the risk of AOE. Because of this, I really have no idea what Trip's proposed change would do to balance.
indeed
Why dont we throw heavy's double damage in melee on the table as well? That would be a big nerf, but what I like about it is that new players dont know about this feature anyway.
since they lack runemetals i doubt removing the melee burst dmg is a good idea. I'd rather see heavy's hp reduced to 1000. I doubt this will be needed if things like respawn costing 1ap.
Just throwing out another nerf for the dwarves. Remove annhilators debuff instead of nerfing it but buff his hp to 800.
It'd be a decent nerf but it'd ruin the flavour of it IMO and make it far too similar to the archer.
It seems to be the newer players who have most trouble with TF2, so I don't see why them not noticing a change in the Heavy really a good thing. Heavy double damage at melee does seem to be a tad too powerful, the heavy does seem a tad too powerful in general, but I think nerfs like are being proposed to the heavy could turn it from arguably TF2's strongest unit to one its worse. The low initial damage of the heavy means that for it to be effective over a multi-turn attack (the only way you can use it effectively in most cases), it has to have strong HP. Hence I don't like the HP reduction suggestion - I also don't like it because it'd make TF2 even more squishy, which isn't a good way to balance them. Reducing the heavy's attack would just push it under the limit; it just wouldn't do enough damage to be effective. And taking away his double melee damage would make pretty much ensure his demise against an aggressive melee unit. I can reluctantly accept that the Heavy may need a small nerf, but I can't see a nerf that won't push him over the edge.
we cant nerf his dmg since otherwise it will be to little.
i'd say his health is too high. its not too rarely he can move in, attack 2-3 times. Surive an enmy attack to do his high health and given the time for an 5 AP attack. And we all know that will hurt, alot. With 1000 hp it will be harder to do this. But i understand why you dont want it. How are we supposed to nerf him since we cant change hp and dmg? Reduce his movement to? His a walking monster, and monsters tend to be abit slow, right? :) But 1 movement is very slow and will take to use for offensive things. One thing we can atleast agree on his that we should remove the scenarios that allows him to attack 4 units since i think its not intended.
Just throwing out another nerf for the dwarves. Remove annhilators debuff instead of nerfing it but buff his hp to 800.
It'd be a decent nerf but it'd ruin the flavour of it IMO and make it far too similar to the archer.
i just realized that nerfing the debuff wont be the same again. So i'd rather remove it, buff the hp as a small compensation so you can start doing other lovely things with him. He still got the knockback ability and AoE, so hes still diffrent from the archer.
What about the stupid spy? You cant target him from range, I get it, but its stupid that you can't hit units behind him. He is like the best wall ever. And to defend against him you almost always need another unit behind your front assault unit to cover his back cause spies deal like 900 dmg from behind and since TF move like crazy, its not hard for the spy to 1 hit KO and retreat to safety...no real risk.
What about the stupid spy? You cant target him from range, I get it, but its stupid that you can't hit units behind him. He is like the best wall ever. And to defend against him you almost always need another unit behind your front assault unit to cover his back cause spies deal like 900 dmg from behind and since TF move like crazy, its not hard for the spy to 1 hit KO and retreat to safety...no real risk.
i do like this nerf, make it so that the spy is still free from ranged attacks but that attacks can go throw him, taking away his "front wall" attribute
if this were to happen then it would have to be the only nerf to tf2 because this is a pretty major nerf
Give the heavy 20/20 resists or even 10/10 and I will gladly give up spy walling
Spy no longer blocking LOS to units behind might be a good subtle adjustment. I'm generally afraid of overnerfing them and would imagine they want to keep a very light touch here. Not messing with attack/defense values too much might be safer. Spy LOS, Respawn AP--maybe just those and one other similar thing.
Unrelatedly, and I haven't seen anyone mention this--I really think the speed tile on the Shaolin map should be reduced for everyone, not just Dwarves. At +1 for everyone, maybe you could even get away with +2 for Dwarves, but even that I'm not sure. I just don't like units having 5 move on there--it shrinks the map too much. Even at 3 AP, first player can park a unit there easily and cover the enemy speed tile before P2 even has a turn.
Unrelatedly, and I haven't seen anyone mention this--I really think the speed tile on the Shaolin map should be reduced for everyone, not just Dwarves. At +1 for everyone, maybe you could even get away with +2 for Dwarves, but even that I'm not sure. I just don't like units having 5 move on there--it shrinks the map too much. Even at 3 AP, first player can park a unit there easily and cover the enemy speed tile before P2 even has a turn.
i did create a thread some time back when the map came out: http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Shaolin-map
but yea the speed boost is pretty ridiculous
Spy los would be a big nerf. Big. Maybe something of that magnitude is needed though.
I like the spy LOS nerf. That and respawn token +1 AP. Fits the flavor - Spies shouldn't be "tanking" under any circumstances. That said, RE did say in the beginning that that was one of the few ways TF2 could have defence in the early game, but I disagree - spies should be a MAD - type deterrent, not a tank-type deterrent.
Since I'm here, I don't think nerfing the heavy's tankiness is the right way to go either. If anything, nerf the melee damage (perhaps spin up damage does not benefit from x2 melee bonus?).
I think that respawn +1 AP and Spy LOS may do the trick, though. As a bonus, it mainly affects DE, CL and TR (whose range 3 units do not ignore LOS, unlike DW). It also increases the value of snipers in TF2 mirror matches, which may make things... exciting.
.. DW can jump in a lake. :)
such hate.. :)
and i doubt nerfing the sniper dmg will change anything. If anything the opponent should be punished for willingly take on snipershots. Its better to nerf other areas. Like for example the demoman, i dont understand why hes an 2.0 grenadier :)
if anyone wants to play some hero academy with me, challenge me!
nick: Ragnaok