how to buff shoalin and debuff dwarv ...
it's pretty much a forum consensus that shaolin needs a buff, while tf2 and dwarves need a debuff...some of this stuff has been said before but i thought this specific topic deserves its own thread
MY THOUGHTS:
shaolin buff: increase the taoist attack range to 3...that way you could keep him further back in your army and not risk him being killed (considering it is a squishy unit) and it would also allow players to be more flexible when trying to build up combo points on offense
tf2 debuff: decrease demoman's attack range to 2...i believe the demoman is the best offensive unit tf2 has especially when upgraded by a mechanic (but i am also a bit bias in that way because i mainly play dwarves who are weak against grenadier/demoman)
another suggestion for tf2 (this has been brought up somewhere else in the forums) is to decrease the sniper's attack range to 7 or 6 so that it cannot sit in the back row of every map
dwarves debuff: (this has also been brought up elsewhere) but decrease the percent the annihilator does to enemy units...-50% plus a drill is overpowered in my opinion
also drop the paladin's starting resistance to 5% or even 0% for both magical and physical, considering that once you get all 3 paladins next to each other (stacked auras, plus their armor) their resistance/hp is very difficult to overcome
If you reduce sniper range to 4 you may as well remove him because he is squishy, has *** damage outside of crouch. He is primarily an area denial unit. My issue with demo men and grenadiers is the fact that they have attacks that ignore los. This makes them frustrating to defend against. I'd gladly see this gone
When i said make sniper have range 4, i meant for it to be a normal attack range, not just the 4 squares in front of him. He would punish enemies for getting too close, instead of harassing from across the map. His squishyness would prevent him from getting too close to the enemy, keeping him close to his side.
It's still not good enough.
It's still not good enough.
Yeah, a sniper by definition is a sharpshooter that hangs way back for the hidden attack. He would cease to be a sniper and become just a rifleman. Besides, there's Valve's TF brand to consider: They can't have an in-game Hero Academy unit labled identically to its counterpart from another game that "doesn't act the part" as its namesake in Team Fortress.
I hate the Sniper and would love to seem him nerfed, but red is right - he has two equally important roles: one as a high-hit death dealer and the other as a de facto deterrent.. He is what he is.
Jarate multipliers is what needs to be the focus, IMHO. And that's based on the thorough debate all around this forum.
Jarate multipliers is what needs to be the focus, IMHO. And that's based on the thorough debate all around this forum.
Based on the thorough debate all around this forum, I'm quite convinced that the jarate multiplier ought to remain untouched.
I suggested the jarate nerf, and I'm thinking about disowning it. >.>
I'm still convinced that TF2 needs more than a sniper tweak, though. Snipers are really not the problem. Mass AOE is the problem against SL, TR's lack of AOE is the problem, reliable high single target damage is the problem against DE, and DW can jump in a lake. :)
If jarate nerf isn't the problem, then multiple small nerfs are the solution. I still stand by my view that TF2 is currently way to efficient.
And really, why are we talking so much about TF2 and not DW? I find the DW problem far worse than TF2, to be honest.
I'm still convinced that TF2 needs more than a sniper tweak, though. Snipers are really not the problem. Mass AOE is the problem against SL, TR's lack of AOE is the problem, reliable high single target damage is the problem against DE, and DW can jump in a lake. :)
If jarate nerf isn't the problem, then multiple small nerfs are the solution. I still stand by my view that TF2 is currently way to efficient.
The issues with SL and TR are not unique to matchups with TF2, and therefore they should be fixed through changes to those teams directly. The high single target damage against DE would be greatly reduced by a -- you guessed it -- small Sniper nerf. =)
IMO, it's not just the sniper - spy (especially upgraded spy), 390 units, heavy.. TF2 3 shots a lot of things which would normally need 4 shots.
They also can't kill certain things without those units.
IMO, it's not just the sniper - spy (especially upgraded spy), 390 units, heavy.. TF2 3 shots a lot of things which would normally need 4 shots.
And they must 4-shot many things that would take only 3-shots for other teams, and 3-shot units that ought to take only 2. Those 390 damage units, for example, are the best TF2 can produce in terms of unassisted damage, and yet they cannot 3-shot the typical 960 health unit with magic resistance (something DE can produce quite easily), nor can they 2-shot a mere 800 HP vanilla. The only ways for TF2 to get better kills without jarate is by comboing with a medic or sniper.
A spy falls quickly to void monks, and is pretty much helpless without assistance.
Jarate multipliers is what needs to be the focus, IMHO. And that's based on the thorough debate all around this forum.
Based on the thorough debate all around this forum, I'm quite convinced that the jarate multiplier ought to remain untouched.
Okay then.... So color me current now. I'm backing off the jarate nerf.
How about the idea of 1AP cost to use the Respawn token? Did that fizzle out too? That was my second choice. This would also mostly conform to ArtNJ's KISS principle.
Yet there remains a lingering desire for a little something else too. Like others, I still entertain the notion that TF perhaps is best tweeked by a couple minor nerfs and not one major one. Certainly not 2 major, or even 1 major and 1 minor.
Alas.... I guess that is the true challenge around here: coming to a consensus on what constitutes Major vs. Minor.
Okay then.... So color me current now. I'm backing off the jarate nerf.
How about the idea of 1AP cost to use the Respawn token? Did that fizzle out too? That was my second choice. This would also mostly conform to ArtNJ's KISS principle.
Yet there remains a lingering desire for a little something else too. Like others, I still entertain the notion that TF perhaps is best tweeked by a couple minor nerfs and not one major one. Certainly not 2 major, or even 1 major and 1 minor.
Alas.... I guess that is the true challenge around here: coming to a consensus on what constitutes Major vs. Minor.
I'm open to the respawn costing 1 AP. I consider it a middle-range nerf, which would drastically reduce TF2's ability to double-up by counter-attacking while simultaneously saving a downed unit. Could be an effective change.
I'm open to the respawn costing 1 AP. I consider it a middle-range nerf, which would drastically reduce TF2's ability to double-up by counter-attacking while simultaneously saving a downed unit. Could be an effective change.
This is why I feel a bit guilty when I do it as TF. I feel like I'm exploiting a loophole. But it's not a bug or oversight - it's by design for now.
That's only secondary to the degree of guilt I have when I play versus SL and my automatic calculations kick-in with the bamboo-bug. The little devil on my shoulder whispers in my ear that chances are they're very unlikely going to be able to Bamboozle my KO'd unit, where as the angel on the other shoulder tsk-tsk's me for even considering it, and that I should play as if they could/would be able to (if only to prevent a bad habit from forming prior to patching).
Does sound fine--Respawn is just a little mind-bending as it is, so simplifying its function is fine. I also never really understood the flavor of having it not cost a AP anyway.
TF2 offensive power is really weird. As I went over the day they launched, a 30% upgrade is in an odd no-man's land, because 3*1.3=3.9, so it doesn't reduce a 4-hit to a 3-hit. So 200damage TF2 units can't 3-hit anything, and the 300 damage magic attackers can't 3-hit a target with 1200 EHP (960 and 20% resist). It does let them 3-hit a 1000-1100 EHP target (880 with helm, or naked Paladin or Knight).
Reason for this is of course is that with unlimited upgrades, TF2 can't have the usual 50% that knocks one hit off in basically every situation. The 30% is the biggest upgrade that can be given safely--it doesn't reduce 4 to 3 (most common scenario in HA), but it does help out in basically every "unusual" case, which really is quite a lot of them.
Someone brought up reducing Demo-man's range, and I think this, coupled with either a jarate or the respawn nerf, would be sufficient.
TF2 offensive power is really weird. As I went over the day they launched, a 30% upgrade is in an odd no-man's land, because 3*1.3=3.9, so it doesn't reduce a 4-hit to a 3-hit. So 200damage TF2 units can't 3-hit anything, and the 300 damage magic attackers can't 3-hit a target with 1200 EHP (960 and 20% resist). It does let them 3-hit a 1000-1100 EHP target (880 with helm, or naked Paladin or Knight).
keep in mind that 960 20/20 basically means a +3 unit, which is jar bait and can be 1 shot by a 390 unit.
The 30% is the biggest upgrade that can be given safely--it doesn't reduce 4 to 3 (most common scenario in HA), but it does help out in basically every "unusual" case, which really is quite a lot of them.
Wich is almost all of the DE 800 plus a bit or 900 plus a bit or 1000 plus a bit scenarios. With +3 units off the table, oftentimes DE has to rely on these edge cases, which don't work against TF2.
IMO, it's not just the sniper - spy (especially upgraded spy), 390 units, heavy.. TF2 3 shots a lot of things which would normally need 4 shots.
And they must 4-shot many things that would take only 3-shots for other teams, and 3-shot units that ought to take only 2. Those 390 damage units, for example, are the best TF2 can produce in terms of unassisted damage, and yet they cannot 3-shot the typical 960 health unit with magic resistance (something DE can produce quite easily), nor can they 2-shot a mere 800 HP vanilla. The only ways for TF2 to get better kills without jarate is by comboing with a medic or sniper.
A spy falls quickly to void monks, and is pretty much helpless without assistance.
960 with 20 magic resist is a +3 unit, which gets 1 shot by jar.
You know, just to understand where you're coming from - are you saying that the sniper nerf to +250 will, by itself, bring TF2 down 100 ELO points? Because I'm really, really not seeing it.
Also, DW guys. At minimum, remove pally aura attack buff, pally aura stacking, and annihilator debuff. Even that I don't think serves to bring the team down to the level of the other teams, honestly.
960 with 20 magic resist is a +3 unit, which gets 1 shot by jar.
You know, just to understand where you're coming from - are you saying that the sniper nerf to +250 will, by itself, bring TF2 down 100 ELO points? Because I'm really, really not seeing it.
There you go again with the "must build +3 super-units" paradigm...
With good Soul Harvests (not tough against TF2), DE can conceivably have up to 6 (six!) units with 960+ health and magic resistance. The wraith makes one more threat for über status without any mods at all. Say TF2 uses jarate to kill 2 of these -- how are they to deal with the other 4 or 5? It's even viable to force jarate on a non-sworded unit, making things even tougher for TF2. Yes, if you immediately build 3 super-units you are begging to lose 2/3 of your offense -- so don't play that way.
I find sniper combos to be worth at least 1-3 kills per game, which never would have been possible with Sniper 1.0. So yes, I'd say that (along with buffs to other teams) could close the gap sufficiently.
That would mean giving up all remote rez. I certainly won't dismiss it out of hand, but it's an unorthodox strategy, with considerable sacrifice perhaps equal to that of 3 soul gems.. and is only open to DE, although other races perhaps have other issues which may overshadow the power of 390 units.
That would mean giving up all remote rez. I certainly won't dismiss it out of hand, but it's an unorthodox strategy, with considerable sacrifice perhaps equal to that of 3 soul gems.. and is only open to DE, although other races perhaps have other issues which may overshadow the power of 390 units.
You know what else is unorthodox? TF2. Using traditional strategies against them is simply setting yourself up for an even more challenging match. And other races DO have similar "unorthodox" resources available to them that can be effective. Focusing offensive efforts through the wizard is a great example for council.
IMHO In retrospect if sniper wasn't buffed at all - 260 dmg when crouched upgraded and 390 if upgraded + medic'ed - TF2 would be doing just fine. Snipers would still remain a threat, as even 200-260 potshots from the back would slow opposing teams from advancing. And sniper+jarate combo would remain viable, as long as sniper was positioned next to a medic in the rear. Too bad RE rushed the sniper buff.
@Trip Note that sniper nerf to +250 will mean that upgraded sniper will deal 380 damage when crouched - which is once again enough to 1-shot all 960 HP units with jarate. Meaning this nerf will really only slow TF2 a little, and will probably not make 100 ELO difference. Other nerfs should happen, too.
IMHO In retrospect if sniper wasn't buffed at all - 260 dmg when crouched upgraded and 390 if upgraded + medic'ed - TF2 would be doing just fine. Snipers would still remain a threat, as even 200-260 potshots from the back would slow opposing teams from advancing. And sniper+jarate combo would remain viable, as long as sniper was positioned next to a medic in the rear. Too bad RE rushed the sniper buff.
@Trip Note that sniper nerf to +250 will mean that upgraded sniper will deal 380 damage when crouched - which is once again enough to 1-shot all 960 HP units with jarate. Meaning this nerf will really only slow TF2 a little, and will probably not make 100 ELO difference. Other nerfs should happen, too.
An upgraded sniper with jarate SHOULD feel like a big deal, and a unit that willingly parks itself in front of a crouched sniper SHOULD feel threatened. Reducing solo sniper damage to the point where upgraded units have no reason to avoid camping directly in fromt of them would be a mistake. 200-260 damage potshots are, in many cases, a wasted AP. Snipers shouldn't need medic/attack boost support just to KO a unit with one of their 2 jarates!
I think the respawn token, costing an AP and maybe not affecting the range of the demoman, but maybe affecting his AOE damage. I was thinking, since he does extra damage to crystals, maybe that should be his niche. Reduce the AOE affect, unless it's a crystal, keep it the same. But keep the direct target attack damage. That way, grouping isn't so deadly for other teams, but it still give TF2 a viable way to win, by destroying crystals with the 2 demomen
Demo man does less crystal damage than soldiers or pyros unless an assault tile is held. Aoe damage is his niche. Crystal damage is icing so that he doesn't suck
Then maybe buff his damage to crystals and nerf his AoE. (plus being able to lob makes him better for crystals)
It's difficult to change TF2 without ruining them, but without doing anything trivial.
I've always thought that taking away his lob would be a decent nerf for the demoman. That, combined with the respawn costing an AP and a melee knockback for the soldier would probably be enough.
I've always thought that taking away his lob would be a decent nerf for the demoman. That, combined with the respawn costing an AP and a melee knockback for the soldier would probably be enough.
Way more than enough.
Ive been avoiding these balance threads, because i personally feel that its RE's job, not ours, to balance the game. But since im currently bored out of my mind, Ill offer some thoughts.
About buffing Shaolin, most people have said things like make windbalde AOE less lopsided, make monk move 3, etc. Ill agree that those would definitely benefit the team, but I feel that Shaolin needs more of a mechanic change. Right now, its simple to see that the combo system just doesnt work out, and playing the team as a whole is spazzy. If we tweak a couple of statistics, the units are still going to work together just as awkwardly as before.
On giving sniper less range, I think that'll do little, if anything. Either of two things would happen: the sniper would move forward, like Moontz said, and the opponents units would be in just as much danger of him as before. Or, the sniper would stay in the back row, but then to keep the opponents units out of his range, they would have to be in their back row, too.
I think a good nerf to the sniper would be to eliminate the "his row" restriction, and give him an attack range of 4.
I like what Moontz said about decreasing the demoman's range. If you dont look at the potential a grenadier has (with equipment), a demoman is a direct upgrade to a grenadier. (demoman does more damage to crystals)
On nerfing anni's debuff, I dont think debuffing and drilling is at all as OP as people make it out to be, because theres only two drills in the deck. Instead, i think nerfing the drill so that it doesnt remove armor would be a nice balance. If both drills are used accordingly, it leaves the opponent with only 1 shield/soulstone to use, which seems a little unfair.
I agree with Moontz's idea of giving pallies less resist. Healers that are arguably as tanky as a knight (more tanky when together) is definitely a big advantage, especially since others teams healers are the average 800hp, no resists.
EDIT: Also, i think making the engineers bubble range 2 is a good idea, too. Just to clarify, Im not saying we need all these nerfs to Dwarves, Im saying theyd be good ways to un-OP them without changing their playstyle.
Congratulations to the winner of 2013's Team of the Year Tournament: The Tribe!!
Feel free to start a match with me. I play casually, but will accept league matches. Since Shaolin is currently persuading me not to choose random like I normally would, I usually choose Dwarves, Dark Elves, or TF2.