Zekers/SixOkay, Please Note that Sin ...
Let's be clear -- corpse explosion is not, and never will be, a reliable means of dealing consistent damage. What it was (and would be again, at 66%) is a deterrent. Opponents won't be able to leave weakened units at their front lines, even if they don't care about that unit. They won't be able to KO a lone Tribe unit if they have their own units vulnerable and within 2 squares. Against good opposition it's an annoyance factor, a move limiter, and very occasionaly a surprise opportunity -- it's not something that could ever be reasonably considered a go-to AOE option, and trying to evaluate it as such will lead to (I believe) faulty analyses.
The problem at 100% was that it was enough to set up chain reactions of corpses, making a single ideal situation multiply into a game-winning position. Especially on maps with accessible attack boosts (which is most of them), the rage isn't even necessary. I think 75% would cross back into that territory, enabling chain kills to be performed (or, more importantly, threatened) with too much consistency.
I think we are clear. That's why there should be some form of compensation for how unreliable AoE the CE is. We're not asking to make it reliable. The whole CE mechanics would have to change to make that possible. But there should be something else for the Witch in it. You call it 'deterrent' and I agree with that. The problem is I don't think at 50% nor at 66% is a deterrent to anyone, because without rage you can't kill anything. All other AoE units have the same threat possibility. Exactly the same can be said about a Gunner or a Grenadier, you can't leave a weakened unit in front of your other units, even if you don't care for that unit. Other AoE units do less damage but the threat to be able to do it repeatedly causes a lot more fear to lose several units to them, than to a single blow that quite possible won't KO anyone.
The problem is that without real options for AoE the Tribe is left in a tough spot when facing certain matchups. The CE might not be an AoE option now, but it once was an option that was lost in the update. Might not be a go-to AoE option but given the lack of options, is what they have to work with. If it's not a good AoE, the worst part is it's not even a good deterrent.
At 100% was too much, I just don't think at 75% we're crossing the line again.
At 100% was too much, I just don't think at 75% we're crossing the line again.
That's fine -- I do. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what Robot thinks, eh? For all we know, they left CE at 50%, but made the axe-thrower deal splash damage. ;)
At 100% was too much, I just don't think at 75% we're crossing the line again.
That's fine -- I do. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what Robot thinks, eh? For all we know, they left CE at 50%, but made the axe-thrower deal splash damage. ;)
I was thinking exactly the same thing this morning :) What if the CE would just stomp but wouldn't do splash damage and the Thrower would deal splash damage. Bouncing tomahawk between targets :P
I was thinking exactly the same thing this morning :) What if the CE would just stomp but wouldn't do splash damage and the Thrower would deal splash damage. Bouncing tomahawk between targets :P
Bouncing tomahawks?!!?!
Me.
Want.
NOW!
I'm in love all over again!
*STINKEYE*
Yeah, we so need splash 500 physical damage with no buffs WHAT?
Oh please, Tabby. They wouldn't really bounce, per se. They'd just behave as tiny quantum particles, everywhere and nowhere at once. Nothing to worry about. Also, the paladin will be able to throw her hammer.
Aiiiiiin't buying buddy. *STINKEYE*
*secretly replaces Pally's hammer with squeekytoy*
Well, Tabby, bouncing tomahawks wouldn't do 100% of damage, just 66%, 75% tops =P
And Trip, Tabby doesn't care about bouncing tomahawks or hammers, now if we were talking about bouncing spears or... magic... necromancy thingies then he might think we were on to something and stop giving us stink eyes =)
*also replaces axe with squeekytoy*
Hey guys, just so you know what's up (sorry, meant to respond to this last week) -
We're going to get the Shaolin out and then give it a little time to see how the balance is across the board. We don't want to make balance changes and release a new team at the same time, as the new team will likely affect balance in ways you can't necessarily predict. We'll be watching after the Shaolin release, though, and we'll keep an eye out for balance changes that might need to be made.
Argh, the suspsense is killing me!
Is it likely to be released by the end of the week? Or have apple not told you much?
Trip's take here is spot on. As a dedicated Tribe player, I only considered the Chief as my go-to AOE... The Witch was the Punisher of Errors. The original set at 100% was abusive - I should know because I abused it at every turn I could for chain explodes, knowing that *** was going to be nerfed at RE's earliest judgement. Mind you, I abused it for the short-time entertainment high like whippits from dairy whip, not like 'roids for a competitive edge.
Where was I? Oh yeah. I was riffin' off The Trip's Tip: The Witch needs to resume her role as Dominatrix, the sadist to the masochistic sloppy player, or as Trip (almost) called her: Madam Detterent.
What forces The Tribe into Aggressive play style is their power to exploit mistakes, so they should be always trying to provoke the other player into becoming too defensive or too offensive in return in order to make the more "accident prone." As Tribe my usual strategy is for TKO; CK's are harder to achieve with a squishy team because you can't camp on assault tiles, but a pimped Tribesman with Shaman backup is right dangerous to approach on an attack tile.
My final analysis: The Tribe is all about intimidation as a horde. They lost that after the last so-called "balancing" changes. They can't be returned to the ridiculous horror they were, but the 66/66 will at least make the respectable again and not the spastic clowns they've become.
Dixi.
I must say I am glad that I didn't play the Tribe before the nerf, as I enjoy playing this team with all its strength and weakneses. I enjoy the challenge, but I agree that TF2 is a hard nut to crack, prolly too hard, but against the other teams I think they have a good chance to win.
And you are right that they rely on their ability to punish the mistakes the opponent makes. In my experience even good players make mistakes, as you can setup the Tribe forcing them to make decisions they might regret :)
Have faith in the Robots :)
Well, Tabby, bouncing tomahawks wouldn't do 100% of damage, just 66%, 75% tops =P
I'd have the bouncing tomahawks at 66% over a Witch & Axethrower reversal any day :) Make it so RE :)
Otherwise, a full reversal of the Tribe changes are in order pls. Tribe needs usable AoE. I've stopped using Tribe completely.
Hmmm I think I posted about tribe sucking a month ago with stats on axe thrower etc. it's true, I used to love Tribe, now I never play them anymore. You don't have a true runescroll, so x3 damage is circumstantial, your chieftain can't AOE effectively if you can't commit him, witch is good at range stomping, but not at AOE damage. The axe thrower might be strong, but so is an Archer or Impaler with buffs and a base of 450 damage. In my charts I posted before its generally not worth buffing your axe thrower as it won't do more against many puppets, unless its a mega buffed DE unit. But DE can easily beat Tribe too now a days, IMHO.
I suggested different things before, but now I'm going to suggest something new.
Give the Tribe more reliable AOE, not by buffing the witch, but by buffing the chieftain instead. This could be by increasing his health a bit more, or giving him 10% physical armor;making him more resilient once he commits to a fray, or by making his base attack 250 instead of 200.
The team needs a way to deal with TF2 and Dwarves, who are now, most likely, the strongest teams.
Or the TF2 and Dwarves need to be nerfed, which I'm actually in favor of as well, if we are to restore some sense of balance in the game. This patch is, IMHO, less balanced than the previous one!
Hey guys, just so you know what's up (sorry, meant to respond to this last week) -
We're going to get the Shaolin out and then give it a little time to see how the balance is across the board. We don't want to make balance changes and release a new team at the same time, as the new team will likely affect balance in ways you can't necessarily predict. We'll be watching after the Shaolin release, though, and we'll keep an eye out for balance changes that might need to be made.
Thanks for sharing, SixOkay, this is a big help. And I agree with your approach.
Just my personal experience: About 6-8 weeks ago, for a while, in many, close to half, of my random opponent games, the opponent came out as Tribe. Now, there is not a single Tribe in my game list and I don't remember the last one. So, whether it's a strength or fun-ness deficit, as someone suggested, tribe probably need to be looked at.
However, related to what SixOkay said above, we may discover that Tribe counters Shaolin well and interest in Tribe will reignite.
All teams need to be viable vs all teams. Nothing is more UN fun if Tribe > Shaolin and TF2/Dwarves > Tribe. Yes they all need to play differently, but this is a game like chess, not rock-paper-scissors.
:-)
All teams need to be viable vs all teams. Nothing is more UN fun if Tribe > Shaolin and TF2/Dwarves > Tribe. Yes they all need to play differently, but this is a game like chess, not rock-paper-scissors.
:-)
and robot said they will look for balance after the shaolin team is out, so just wait :)
All teams need to be viable vs all teams. Nothing is more UN fun if Tribe > Shaolin and TF2/Dwarves > Tribe. Yes they all need to play differently, but this is a game like chess, not rock-paper-scissors.
:-)
and robot said they will look for balance after the shaolin team is out, so just wait :)
Yes I did read that.
Let's be clear -- corpse explosion is not, and never will be, a reliable means of dealing consistent damage. What it was (and would be again, at 66%) is a deterrent. Opponents won't be able to leave weakened units at their front lines, even if they don't care about that unit. They won't be able to KO a lone Tribe unit if they have their own units vulnerable and within 2 squares. Against good opposition it's an annoyance factor, a move limiter, and very occasionaly a surprise opportunity -- it's not something that could ever be reasonably considered a go-to AOE option, and trying to evaluate it as such will lead to (I believe) faulty analyses.
The problem at 100% was that it was enough to set up chain reactions of corpses, making a single ideal situation multiply into a game-winning position. Especially on maps with accessible attack boosts (which is most of them), the rage isn't even necessary. I think 75% would cross back into that territory, enabling chain kills to be performed (or, more importantly, threatened) with too much consistency.
Trip's take here is spot on. As a dedicated Tribe player, I only considered the Chief as my go-to AOE... The Witch was the Punisher of Errors. The original set at 100% was abusive - I should know because I abused it at every turn I could for chain explodes, knowing that *** was going to be nerfed at RE's earliest judgement. Mind you, I abused it for the short-time entertainment high like whippits from dairy whip, not like 'roids for a competitive edge.
Where was I? Oh yeah. I was riffin' off The Trip's Tip: The Witch needs to resume her role as Dominatrix, the sadist to the masochistic sloppy player, or as Trip (almost) called her: Madam Detterent.
What forces The Tribe into Aggressive play style is their power to exploit mistakes, so they should be always trying to provoke the other player into becoming too defensive or too offensive in return in order to make the more "accident prone." As Tribe my usual strategy is for TKO; CK's are harder to achieve with a squishy team because you can't camp on assault tiles, but a pimped Tribesman with Shaman backup is right dangerous to approach on an attack tile.
My final analysis: The Tribe is all about intimidation as a horde. They lost that after the last so-called "balancing" changes. They can't be returned to the ridiculous horror they were, but the 66/66 will at least make the respectable again and not the spastic clowns they've become.
Dixi.
Writch
Equal parts cur, mud, and gin.
Never shaken, but often stirred.
Serving suggestion: Usually taken with a pinch of salt.