Windblade AOE Frustrations
You attack the middle of a "V" -- one end of the V gets 50% damage and one 25%. Why? Completely counter-intuitive.
You want to pre-potion, move up the windblade and attack next turn. If you arent in range to test it, you pretty much have no idea which targets your Windblade will actually hit. Its a raw guess.
I'll grant that most of us dont always know how the Wizard's chain will go (and sometimes the Chieftain can surprise as well) but, at the least, if you are right about which targets will be hit, you certainly know which targets get which damage. And of course the other AOE units all do constant AOE. The Windblade is the only unit where which target gets what damage is unknowable until some esoteric mechanic is discovered.
For starters, please tell us what the rule and the thinking currently is, so that we can have a group discussion about whether and how it should be adjusted.
One idea to float for discussion is, if the Shaolin need a small buff, boost the Windblade to 100/50/50. If they dont need a small buff, then 100/35/35 would be preferable to 100/50/25. This would not help with the pattern, but at least it takes the unequal damage to the sides of a "V" out of the mix.
i wouldnt be surprised if shaolin gets many buffs, the biggest imo needs to be the movement...the monk, windblade and shadow should all have movement of 3, poinsoner n taoist shoukd stay at 2...the units are so weak, and the idea is that u are supposed to use several units per turn for combo effect...but how are u supposed to do that wen each unit moves so slowly? .. i think robot saw tf2 as an overpowered team so in order to not make thag mistake they made shaolin underpowered
double post sorry
i wouldnt be surprised if shaolin gets many buffs, the biggest imo needs to be the movement...the monk, windblade and shadow should all have movement of 3, poinsoner n taoist shoukd stay at 2...the units are so weak, and the idea is that u are supposed to use several units per turn for combo effect...but how are u supposed to do that wen each unit moves so slowly? .. i think robot saw tf2 as an overpowered team so in order to not make thag mistake they made shaolin underpowered
I think I've figured out a few things. Number one (and to state the obvious), it doesn't chain through targets like the Wizard or Shaman. It chooses additional victims based on their proximity to the initial target, not based on the last victim. So if there's a line of people, but the target only has one unit/crystal by it, then you only get one AOE hit.
The AOE seems to prioritize anything standing directly behind the target first (behind meaning closest to the enemy's deploy tile column, not necessarily the opposite side of the attacker). That spot will get the 50% hit. This is different from the Wizard's attack, which wants to go "straight", meaning it will try to keep going the same direction, so the 2nd victim can be above the target, or even in front of the target. After that, the 25% hit prioritizes the tile above the target (meaning furthest from your hand of items/units, closest to the banner displaying the player names). If the top spot is empty, then it tries for the bottom spot. I haven't really tested much with diagonals, but I do know that it prefers victims directly adjacent to the target, so it will ignore any diagonal victims if possible.
Interestingly, I had one situation while testing with Redexobyte where his windblade was standing 2 spots away from my unit, with Bamboo on both sides of my unit (the target). He hit me, the bamboo behind me took the 50% hit, and the bamboo in front of me took the 25% hit. That can't normally happen, since the windblade can't target through enemy units. But given that all Heroes view Bamboo as a despicable enemy, the one between us took the 3rd hit. I assume this would carry over to a situaion where Player 1 has 3 units in a row, Player 2 moves a windblade into the row above or below them, and targets the middle unit, the back unit will take 50%, and the front 25%.
Basically, if the target is surrounded by teammates, don't think of the AOE as a Wizard's, but as a Void Monk's, hitting the back unit hardest, and any unit above after that.
i wouldnt be surprised if shaolin gets many buffs, the biggest imo needs to be the movement...the monk, windblade and shadow should all have movement of 3, poinsoner n taoist shoukd stay at 2...the units are so weak, and the idea is that u are supposed to use several units per turn for combo effect...but how are u supposed to do that wen each unit moves so slowly? .. i think robot saw tf2 as an overpowered team so in order to not make thag mistake they made shaolin underpowered
Monk, Windblade and Shadow all having 3 movement would be too much imo. Start with the Monk first and add the Windlade later if they still need love.
From my (extremely limited) play as them, I see that monk could use more speed, like other people said, and that the Tsoist needs to heal more or at better range. I'm going for more. Maybe 100% rez, 200-300% heal? :)
double post sorry
double? check again :p
From my (extremely limited) play as them, I see that monk could use more speed, like other people said, and that the Tsoist needs to heal more or at better range. I'm going for more. Maybe 100% rez, 200-300% heal? :)
Healing is a serious weakness for sure, but I'd actually be okay with that staying poor and other areas being buffed IF that is needed.
Council heals at +50%, I would be strongly against making them copy that ability, it would ruin the Council's "flavor" and team advantage. IF they did need better healing, I would instead make it that the blue +1combo effect would could be given by the Taoist to a friendly puppet just by healing it (in addition to clearing bad buffs)... this would be a HUGE buff though, and so it wouldn't do it unless the team was really doing horrible.
All teams need at least one big weakness because thats what makes pciking a team interesting.
I musy say though that very few Shaolin players seem to realize yet just how amazing the faction is at a Crystal Rush......... no other faction can drop a 1200 unit on any crystal square on the map, and still have 4AP to pound a crystal in a single turn. Once people realize how good the team actually is at some strategies, it might not be as weak as people think it is. Shaolin do massive damage when defending, so you have to force the opponent to attack you.
IF the team does seem weak, and that remains to be seen, my favorite buff thus far would be to give the Monk indeed a move of 3AP on his FIRST move (and then he moves 2AP for any additional AP spent on moving after that). It would make him a bit unique.
Another possible buff would be to make the windblade do 100/50/50 instead of 100/50/25. It's small but it makes the AOE output more reliable and a bit better for harassing (which is still tough when your AOE is a range 2 weapon instead of 3. Grenadier is in all ways a superior AOE engine, but you do have poison too.....) -- two windblades together remains formidable cause you can get a chain setup on up to 3 guys at a time... thats +200 damage on 3 guys! Not always easy to set up, but worth the effort. Keep your windblades together in pairs when you can! And with poison support too.
Anyways, still far too early, I'm very curious to see if others start to agree at how good they are at crystal kills.
;-)
I dont think they are good at crystal kills. Sure, you can drop bamboo on a boost tile. Sure, if the other side lets you swarm over a cyrstal, you can kill it in record speed (3 units in range plus a boost tile is sick damage, and 4 is insane). But if another faction body blocks a cyrstal, you have to kill those units because no team has weaker AOE than the Shaolin.
...because no team has weaker AOE than the Shaolin.
Really?! Weaker than DE?! And the tribe?! What if you convert a grenadier or a wiz? Lololol
Art, have you tried stacking wind blades to aoe assault. You need to have a strong position to not get your s*** slapped but it chunks the enemy team pretty hard
...because no team has weaker AOE than the Shaolin.
Really?! Weaker than DE?! And the tribe?! What if you convert a grenadier or a wiz? Lololol
Surely your kidding? Have you actually converted a grenadier or wiz, AND healed em, AND geared them? Its rare, and takes either a diving opponent or the sacrifice of a potion and a little luck. And if you did all that, you would still only have one of what the other teams get to start.
Voidmonk AOE can be annoying as *&^!, with mobility, 66% returned damage from up to 3 targets (not 50%/25%) and the possiblity of using a scroll. Its not remotely comparable -- voidmonks arent just much hardier and more moble, their AOE is better as well. Voidmonk AOE can win games quite easily, and shapes the course of games quite frequently.
As far as the Tribe goes, Chieftains can still win games. Admittedly, its all situational, but...what have you actually done with Windblade AOE? Has it won you any games? Has it made a difference in a crystal race? I'm not seeing it. Looking hard, but not seeing it.
Art, have you tried stacking wind blades to aoe assault. You need to have a strong position to not get your s*** slapped but it chunks the enemy team pretty hard
Yeah, I have. In fact, didnt I do that in our game? Problem is that the second windblade does 300, 250 to the AOE targets on its first attack, and 100, 50 on its second. Its just not a enough to compensate for having to involve two units, as the second windblade can only do that once per turn. Moreover, the damage is mostly combo damage so it doesnt scale as much with runemetal as for other AOE units.
If you pot or pre-pot the first windblade, its 500, 450 for the second Windblade's AOE. Now your talking something comparable to a scrolled attack, especially if one of the Windblade's are runemetal'd and if you have poison on one or more of the AOE targets. But shouldnt it actually be better than a scrolled attack, given the significantly enhanced difficulties of coordination and the need to probably spend an extra AP to move the second Windblade into position? After all, you only get two potions, and those are your only insta-heals as well.
It should be more powerful but what you gonna do... Other than kill someone who handed you their heavy on a plate and raise him to be your super hero
3 Windblades + 2 dragons + potential to convert > 3 VMs (whose aoe is dependent on enemy's positioning much more than Windblades aoe). And SL definitely > than tribe's 2 chiefs, who rarely kill many units before dying if the opponent is at least average. SL's aoe is probably worse than CLs or DWs, but I'm sure anyone can see that just one convert of gunner or wizard can turn the tides. TF2's aoe is prob better (2 grenadiers 2 heavys 2 pyros and 2 respawns) than SL.
Wind blade AOE is flat out awful. I'm just not sure how you can call it comparable to a VM, Ara, with or without dragon support.
Yeah, it's almost literally worse in every way. Good for spreading the combo points around, but not much else. Double windblade is rather good, however - IF - you manage to pull it off.
Yeah, it's almost literally worse in every way. Good for spreading the combo points around, but not much else. Double windblade is rather good, however - IF - you manage to pull it off.
Yeah, I've got double +3 Windblades in one of my games, but I'm not really all that impressed. Their combos are still not enough to deal KO damage to multiple units if movement is required, and their range is not long enough for them to harass safely. Just a big fat "meh".
oh btw if someone wanna try their shaolin against some dwarves feel free to send me a challenge :)
Yeah, it's almost literally worse in every way. Good for spreading the combo points around, but not much else. Double windblade is rather good, however - IF - you manage to pull it off.
Yeah, I've got double +3 Windblades in one of my games, but I'm not really all that impressed. Their combos are still not enough to deal KO damage to multiple units if movement is required, and their range is not long enough for them to harass safely. Just a big fat "meh".
Kinda like wizards for council? ;)
I'd take a wizard over a windblade every single time. I've never understood the lack of respect they get...
Gosh, that's not what I meant. Wouldn't two +3 wizards be "blah" in most games, too (games vs TF2 are an exception)? If you buffed them instead of archers? Whereas in other games, if the enemy positioned his units carelessly, they would be a good option? I bet same goes for windblades.
I'm saying that overall, all things considered, SL has a very reasonable AOE potential, and that they are not necessarily inferior to ALL other factions in that matter.
Ah -- missed that point.
The difference is that I had higher hopes for the combo synergy of the windblades. I had no such expectations for synergy between multiple upgraded wizards. I feel quite comfortable in stating that the windblade is the single worst AOE threat in the game, especially when factoring in externals such as team buffs and items. They really are awful.
The frustration associated with the most non-common sense attack pattern shouldnt be discounted either. Wizard AOE tries to go in a line, Voidmonk makes a T, and for the Windblade, I still cant fully describe what the attack pattern is with confidence, although I understand at least some parts of the whether its 2 or 3 targets. I still have no idea which target gets 50 and which gets 25%, and probably never will unless its changed to be symetric.
It should also be noted that in addition to the low damage coefficient on the AOE (50 and 25% vs higher for all other AOE units) another reason Windblade AOE is inferior is that Shaolin have no scrolls, and the combo potion is a generally inferior substitute. Moreover, the only other faction whoses offense booster item is also the healing item gets 4 of them (Tribe). Shaolin only gets two, and if they need one for healing and cant use the boost effectively, than they only have 1 scroll like item. Another decent way to boost Shaolin, one that hasnt really been mentioned yet, would be to add 1 or 2 more combo potions.
If you remember that HA treats diagonals as non-adjacent, it makes sense that the VM's punch shockwaves or whatever don't reach enemies who aren't standing next to the primary target. Not that versimilitude is really a big deal in a strategy game like this one.
Ah -- missed that point.
The difference is that I had higher hopes for the combo synergy of the windblades. I had no such expectations for synergy between multiple upgraded wizards. I feel quite comfortable in stating that the windblade is the single worst AOE threat in the game, especially when factoring in externals such as team buffs and items. They really are awful.
Thats exactly what my initial post in this topic was on: SL's AOE potential as a team (including dragon, team bonus and convert potential - and I think it is more realistic to convert certain melee AOE dealers than we may appreciate. Charging VMs, suicidal chiefs, some range 2 attackers etc). I just don't see how 3 windblades, 2 dragons and convert potential < than 3 VMs, against which AOE can be easily avoided with diagonal placement.
Ah -- missed that point.
The difference is that I had higher hopes for the combo synergy of the windblades. I had no such expectations for synergy between multiple upgraded wizards. I feel quite comfortable in stating that the windblade is the single worst AOE threat in the game, especially when factoring in externals such as team buffs and items. They really are awful.
Thats exactly what my initial post in this topic was on: SL's AOE potential as a team (including dragon, team bonus and convert potential - and I think it is more realistic to convert certain melee AOE dealers than we may appreciate. Charging VMs, suicidal chiefs, some range 2 attackers etc). I just don't see how 3 windblades, 2 dragons and convert potential < than 3 VMs, against which AOE can be easily avoided with diagonal placement.
Multiple weak AOE options are generally inferior to a few awesome AOE options. The dragon is rarely best used as a true AOE threat, both due to easily-avoided spacing and problematic damage distribution (highest damage at the END of the line, rather than the front). The shadows ability to convert AOE attackers is inconsistent at best, and even a 100% successful convert will never reach full potential due to the absence of native boosters like scrolls and medic boosts. The converted unit cannot even take part in combos! All of this adds up to many weak or inconsistent AOE choices, which have a total much less than the sum of their parts.
Having played with Shaolin a lot more, the real power of the wind blade is not to harass, that's the poisoners job. If you can hit a target with a rune metal poisoner and then combo with a wind blade you get a KO. Wind blade has to follow either another wind blade or a poisoner, and they need to work together.
A rune metal wind blade is good if you need to do 900 damage in 3AP to KO a puppet within 1AP, without support of a poisoner.
windblade is currently made to be part of your pressure that you advance with, instead of some sort of AOE pressure you apply in a hit-and-run like one does with a wizard, VM or grenader. It's a very different role. A bit of more damage and/or some armor would certainly be welcome, but the windblade isn't useless nor can it be entirely compared to other factions AOE units since its function and utility are quite different. Spreading combo points is a very significant aspect of their function.
On the theme of this topic, I want to know if someone has tactically pulled off - with at least some success - a "Twin-blade" push with Taoist support?
Completely agree. The Windblade attack seems very odd right now. Also, being the only AoE unit, an immediate reduction to 50% seems a little weak anyway, let alone then 25%.