Unexplained 14x combos on Double Decker
While figuring out how to high score Double Decker, I saw a x14 combo that shouldn't be : the setup and loadout I used max out at 13x according to the current theory, and I'm not using any environmental trap per se (no cart, lava, log or such stuff).
I actually lost that first game (so no confirmation from the end stats) and I wasn't recording, so although I was pretty sure of what I'd seen, I kinda dismissed it as a delusion. But then it happened again on the next run, and that time I was recording (and won, so got the stats screen confirmation). Following run, nothing. Last run... it happened twice.
Video proof.
As I was waiting for DailyMotion to get their act together and publish the video (11 hours to make a 30s video available, geez...), discussion has already started in another topic.
Rogotin has a compelling theory to offer... but I would say the answer is map-specific and not systemic :
- I've used this setup a lot on other maps and never seen a 14x happen, while here it's a pretty reliable occurence.
- The first run at least was before the patch, so it's not the result of a ninja change brought by the latest patch.
- The forever-lasting-cart-combo point theory should have yielded me some 14x on Precipice or Hidden Gulch, but that never happened.
So, the map-specific elements I can think of here are :
- Water elementals : I just can't figure out how they'd end up adding a combo point (puddle effect, lol ?), but had to mention them for the sake of exhaustiveness. Anyone seen a weird combo count on West Wing of those Endless maps with Water Elementals ?
- The lantern post : I mentionned it in the video of my last run. I does seem silly, but if that thing is taken into account by the physics engine, some orcs will hit it, and the current theory is that such a hit would result in +1 combo point if it deals the killing blow...
- The hole behind the top grinder : although again I can't figure out how that would result in an extra combo point, the top grinder is covering the entrance to the hidden skull passageway, and the mere fact a trap can be placed there is an oddity.
The other possible explanations mentionned are :
- Aura from the exit : again, how would that add a combo point ? And on the Squeeze, we're as close to the exit as here (although here it's a mine exit, while on the Squeeze it a rift). But then, it should add a combo point more consistently, and we'd see tons of 14x instead of an average of one per run. So... not buying that one.
- Hit from the ceiling : can't be this one since the second occurence in the video for instance happens while the top grinder isn't up yet. So when orcs hit the ceiling, they're outside the Grinder's AoE and that combo point is lost.
Whatever the final explanation is, I bet it's gonna seem weird.
Obviously, there's also the plain old bug explanation, but the question is then the same (what's causing the bug ?), only with an even wider range of possibilities.
However I wouldn't rule out the ceiling causing an extra combo point as it does with the swinging mace.
I do.
As I've said (and I've retested it in case it was ninja-fixed by a prior patch), you lose the Grinder combo point if you're outside the Grinder's AoE. In the second occurence, the top Grinder isn't up, so when orcs hit the ceiling, they're one combo point short.
So here, that's clearly not the explanation.
I'm away today (and already feeling all White Rabbitish) so can't do any testing.
But as you've said, some of the theories can be tested, so let's do it ! :)
One of the huge differences is you're pushing to a free landing without a barricade; something you havent' been able to do till now. It may very well be that you stumbled across the correct distance.
Last thought before I run away : my Yeti Den setup offers exactly the same possibility. Just move the scorcher to a lateral position instead of behind the Spring Trap. Distance is the same : average orc landing is between the Steam Trap and Spring Trap.
One of the huge differences is you're pushing to a free landing without a barricade; something you havent' been able to do till now. It may very well be that you stumbled across the correct distance.
Last thought before I run away : my Yeti Den setup offers exactly the same possibility. Just move the scorcher to a lateral position instead of behind the Spring Trap. Distance is the same : average orc landing is between the Steam Trap and Spring Trap.
In this case shifting it to a lateral position means you should get the same x14 combo's on that stage. You can't have the x14 if it is behind the spring trap in my theory because it remains far too long in the area of fire. It needs to pass into and out of the scorcher trap radius igniting then exiting before the spring trap allows it time to 'cool off' but only just enough that the combo point remains while fire does not allowing chill to stack.
Removing Chill or adding radius to scorcher should screw the x14 over entirely. In the other theories it won't, in mine it does. Failing my theory I'd have to go back to the drawing board. I wouldn't rule out phantom combo points; all theory is as valid as any other. But I guess you've ruled out the ceiling by the higher grinder. =/
I've been looking at the clip in slow motion, and it's looking more and more like a chill/fire combo overlap like Rogotin is saying. It's quite possible that both the fire and chill combo points last longer than the status effect. I was curious about the first 14x in the clip because you have two scorchers, but the furthest scorcher seems to trigger after the spring trap (14x is on the heavy orc that goes furthest onto the spring I think).
If I'm correct in my video analysis, then Rogotin's theory could be true. The other option is for an orc to catch the chill of the steam vent first, go through the steam, then get hit by the scorcher replacing chill with fire but sprung into the grinder immediately, thus keeping the chill combo point.
If that's the case then burn longer on the scorcher would also have a 1s timeout after the burning is over, except that in the pushpocalypse setup that is too long. The orc dies before the fire burns out.
I'm really not sure about the wall lamp. The third clip definitely seems to happen very low in the first grinder, a little too far from the lamp. It could be tested with a light orc, some web and a windbelt grab-throw into the lamp. Damage it a little first, maybe use weakening web, so that it dies as soon as it hits it (or the wall). If you get 3x there's an unaccounted combo. Might be easier to use warmage here in order to have tar to slow everything down and give you some extra time to try it multiple times.
The mine cart combo theory could also be easily tested. Grab an orc hit by a mine cart, drag it away (enough time for the cart combo to expire) then put it in front of a wallblade or grinder (no bleed) for 3x.
As for fire combo extra timeout theory, that could also be tested but timing is more critical. Several tries should yield at least one positive. This one can be tested on an easier map like the edge. Set orc on fire, grab, and wallblade as soon as fire expires for 3x (or 4x if the scorcher combo still applies). The ignited animation must have ended otherwise you'll get an expected 3x or 4x because it's still on fire.
The Squeeze setup is slightly different because the steam vent is half a tile offset from the spring, possibly causing some delays when orcs catch the spring and before being lifted by the steam. Your yeti den setup might work with this case using a lateral scorcher.
Unfortunately, I guess I've disproved the Chill + Burn stacking theory. :(
First, I wasn't able to reproduce 14x on other maps with a similar setup (although I've only tried two).
But mainly, I retried Double Decker without Chill on the Steam Trap, and I once again scored two 14x combos.
Video here.
More tests needed of course, but I'm leaning more and more to a map-specific hypothesis...
THEORY CRUSHED - FATALATY!
Mmmm new mystery to investigate. * puts Rogo cap on and cracks knuckles * I'll get to work tonight. Thanks for the update.
Edit: What's the red mist around the push trap? If you play it slowly you notice that one of the orcs (the orc that gets x14 combo) has a red mist applied that actually streaks across the distance and follows him. Is it possible that the push trap is adding x3 some how instead of x2?
I'm starting to think you're right and it may be a level anomoly.
Red mist is the vampire gauntlet's immobilize.
To work this mess out you need to start taking traps out. What needs to happen here is a push to lift to grinder kill combination. You may need to increase gridners to max and take off bleed but the idea is figuring out the minimum number of trap combo's while applying teh magical x1 that comes from nowhere. If while at minimum traps this doesn't happen we rule out an enviromental effect.
If at minimal traps this still happens we accept its enviromental then go searching.
Did that test.
Used Tar + Push Trap (no stun) + Grinder (no bleed) + Steam Trap (no chill) + Windbelt... and got quite a few 6x combos.
Video here.
What I have yet to get is a double "odd combo".
When it happens, it's always only one per bunch. Dunno whether that's significative or not, though.
Could it be that the gap in the wall is considered null space? It has a bizzare mapping to it to begin with being a see through wall. It has to be screwing with something like giving a cliff combo point ...
What would be interesting is the same setup but (this is irritating I know) no grinders. The reasoning behind this is if it is a cliff combo point you should get a death from at least one orc that will combo magically. If that is the case it is possible that there is a trap grid error
I tried to take in some orcs through that passage where the skull is with the wind belt secondary, and everything automatically died just outside it. So maybe it's the clifface thing like Rogo said.
Thanks MrWho. That explains a lot!
* wipes brow * thanks mrwho995 you saved me haha the next thing to do would be put acid sprayers before the entrance and see if you can get a x3 combo from the spray (without slow) windbelt grab and walking in.
Glad to see I haven't lost my touch completely.
This is not actually a new theory. I had the theory that the 'magical' swinging mace combo point was the same effect but it was generally accepted that this was not the case. I also believed that steam traps pushing through a ceiling that had no upper level could give an extra combo point if it glitched but these locations were far and few between and I could not confirm it.
If this is the case it may be plausable to actually use the 'glitch' on other levels by passing it through the grinder then forcing it through the wall. Perhaps a corner tower with spike wall at the same level as the grinder which pushes things into and through it? Something to think about.
Actually, completely ignore what I just said! I was just being an idiot.
Haha ... right back to the lantern!
The only thing I've got left is pushing the orcs into the lantern some how. Past that - I'm lost. Unless it adds a combo point in itself like a stage trap does, maybe a 0 damage single hit?
More tests needed then, hehe.
I'll get to it... but not tonight. ;)
I spent hours yesterday trying to figure it out - and I can confirm now with CERTAINTY that the lamp gives an x1 combo to anything that hits the bottom of the lamp on the way up. Specifically slightly to the right of it ... the why eludes me. But it is indeed the lamp.
I guess I have to bow my head to those that figured it out first.
Mystery solved !
Good job. :)
If this is the case, the search begins for any similar fixtures that give combo points in other maps.
Good work as always, Rogo.
For confirmation - feel free to try it. You'll notice in every video the orc that gets combo extra clips teh very bottom of the lantern each time. That is why the majority of the combo's are very low. there are a few that will be very high - this is for a few reasons. The lantern may be doing damage and when the grinders are jammed they will continue upwards spinning.
Oddly enough it needs a very specific point to connect on the lantern. It seems to be the bottom right most corner while facing the wall, hence why spring trap combo's seem to pick up the most of the combo points. However occasionally you will notice combo's up the left side of the lantern; this is because the orc goes upwards tumbling and hits a flat trajectory on the way up. The lamp only seems to affect one at a time though - so for all intensive purposes think old school brimstone. It seems to hit once every x seconds.
While I have confirmed this to be the case the details are speculation. This may be a lantern thing. We actually need Sixokay for this one to confirm if anything was done with the wall fixture or not. If not it may be a texture thing as I previously thought that causes a 'out of area' combo point to occur.
.... Six?
It starts... :) gj Rogo
*sigh* Pretty soon we'll start seeing combos like:
Off the balcony, into the torch, over the barricade, nothing but grinder.
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Introducing-new-Smash-comb...
Extended explanation on whats happening here.
As I said my theory can be either confirmed or otherwise by a simple upgrade of the floor scorcher. If I'm right x14 won't happen. If I'm wrong it will.
As for the mine cart; possible. The 'gate aura combo' is testable on the edge easily enough as you can put wall traps right next to the rift exit.
Stage element possibly; but actually finding a stage element that offers a combo is problematic. However I wouldn't rule out the ceiling causing an extra combo point as it does with the swinging mace.
One of the huge differences is you're pushing to a free landing without a barricade; something you havent' been able to do till now. It may very well be that you stumbled across the correct distance.
Strider051:
I'd like to see a Rogotin skin for the warmage and sorc. I envision it as kobold runner with a nifty hat riding your shoulders as he lobs grenades at your barricades whilst smacking you in the back of the head.