Team Rankings Betting Pool
Well, we cant bet for money, but maybe someone will cough up a shirt.
Here are the rules: rank the teams, 1-6. Once the League hits 1000 games with the new patch, we'll look at the performance ratings of each team to determine the order. 2000 games would be more reliable, but the League is less than 100 games a week now, so...1000 will take a while.
Here is my entry:
1. Dwarves
2. TF2
3. Tribe
4. DE
5. Shaolin
6. Council
I am very unsure about 5/6. For that matter, it wouldnt surprise me if DE moves up to 3. I am not entirely sure TF2 will hold the 2 spot either...sniper was a real nerf. But this is my entry.
Your prediction seems right, but I'll offer a slightly different entry:
1. Dwarves
2. Tribe
3. TF2
4. Shaolin
5. DE
6. Council
What were the current standings, pre-1.4.2 patch?
Without going to our site to check, pretty sure it was:
1. TF2
2. Dwarves (close to TF2)
3. Tribe
4. DE
5. Council (close to DE)
6. Shaolin (distant last)
On the assumption that TF2 got a real wack and Dwarves got a mild one, seems pretty clear to me that Dwarves will get the top spot.
Council :(
Assuming this impacts tf2 alot :
1 : tribe (with tf2 out of the way they will shine once again *sadface* )
2 : dwarves
3 : tf2
4 : shaolin
5 : de
6 : council
@ lol tbkesq, we got almost the same list :))
In terms of strength in overall matchups:
1. Dwarves
2. TF2
<small gap here>
3. Tribe
4. Dark Elves
<small gap here>
5. Shaolin (assuming early poisoners)
6. Council
7. Shaolin with poisoners at the bottom of the deck
I think TF2 is SO strong against everybody except dwarves that their W/L ratio is probably skewed, but they also get smashed so hard BY dwarves that I have to put them below Dwarves, who I don't feel really suffer against anybody but either an EXTREMELY fast council hand (with a bad dwarf hand) or an extremely well-played Tribe.
Dwarfs
Dark elves
tf2
Tribe
council
shaolin
Dwarves
..
..
TF2
..
SL
..
DE
CL
TR
The stumpies rule again. =/
1: dwarves
2: tribe
3: shaolin
4: tf2
5: DE
6: council
I really want to put shaolin at the 2 spot but they're still pretty draw dependent. But I think these buffs are really gonna give em a boost. I also think dwarves are gonna be way in the lead though, with rest of the teams being fairly close.
Just to be a little different:
- Dark Elves
- Dwarves
- Shaolin
- Tribe
- TF2
- Council
1 and 2 will be nearly equal. And 4 and 5 will be nearly equal.
This isn't actually their actual strengths when played perfectly. I think many of you are underestimating the affect the paladin, sniper, and heavy nerfs will have on non-perfect play. It will quite a bit easier for an experienced player to beat a non-experienced dwarf player.
I think the reason RE nerfed TF2 harder than Dwarves is because RE has access to lower level play data (all games, not just league games).
The shaolin buff is significant. It has made them significantly stronger. But it hasn't made them much more fun. 3-combos are just as hard as they were. With poisoner stronger on her own, combos will be used even less. Combo's value continues to be mainly as a defensive deterrent. Vive la tortue!
To be frank, I don't really care about low level play all too much. Even the crappiest team can look OP when played against a low level player - it's not the team, it's the player.
Tiering or ranking should be done at reasonably high levels, to show the full potential of the teams. And while I agree that the game should be fun at all levels, that does not excuse dwarves topping out at such high power levels compared to the other teams - take for example pally aura. Do you think that low level players even notice that the aura is there? Or what an extra 5% of resist means in terms of effect on gameplay? Apart from -100 HP on the pally (which effectively means nothing) DW were not touched at all! Does RE think that DW are even remotely on the same playing field as the rest of the teams?
Dwarfs
Dark elves
TF2
Shaolin
Council
Ponies
Pixies
Faeries
Strawmen
Tribe
1) Dwarves: I feel the Paladin nerf is, sadly, barely noticeable most of the time. Considering that when the Dwarves were buffed everything except the beer got buffed, and how high they are on the League,, a removal of the Paladin's aura wouldn't have been that bad.
2) TF2: While an upgraded Sniper can still 1-shot 960 hp + 20% defense units using Jarate, the upgraded Sniper + upgraded Soldier / Pyro combo to 2-shot 800 hp vanilla units can't be done anymore. I personally used this almost every match, so I feel this is a moderate nerf. The health nerf on the Heavy seemed to me a bit useless at first, but Tribe actually gets a bit of help from it: An upgraded Witch or Chieftain or a vanilla Axethrower or Warrior can now 2-shot a Heavy using meat. Not sure how useful that is, but it's something.
3) Tribe: While Tribe got a bit of help in its worst matchup (TF2), the team itself didn't get changed at all. Shaolin is the only team that got majorly buffed, and it's too far away in League position to threaten Tribe, so I think that Tribe will remain in 3rd.
4) Council: Personally, as a Council main, I have the most trouble against TF2 and especially Dwarves. While Dwarves hardly got touched at all, TF2 got moderately nerfed, so I think Council may be able to go up in position.
5) Dark Elves: The buff to the Wraith is nice, but isn't too consequential either, especially against Council and Dwarves, its difficult matchups. I think the team probably won't move a lot from its position.
6) Shaolin: While they got majorly buffed, half of the buff went to the Poisoner, which was already pretty good. If you don't get a Poisoner early, the only thing different from before is that your Monks will be able to run away more efficiently from danger. A dragon can now 1-shot a poisoned 760 hp (debuffed by a Monk) / 20% magical defense unit, though, but Shaolin are probably too far away in League position to threaten the 5th place.
Let's see how everything turns out in a few months! (or hopefully sooner, let's try to play League matches to help!)
Given that everyone is puting council so low down, maybe they should get a small buff in the next patch, to get rid of the 'pay to win' concept. Not sure what they could get though.
They're not low, they're just hangin with DE and TR. SL, I reserve comment, but I expect they'll shake out in the same general area. It's really only DW and TF that stand head and shoulders above everyone else.
I dunno. If this was enough to nerf tf2, tribe should get more popular again. Which dwarves wont be happy over
If the shaolin buffs are enough dwarves will struggle against shaolin :)
1100 hp heavy is easier for CL to kill now, since dual fireball is 700. Leaving the heavy with 400hp left instead of 500hp. Which is an AP gain.
Same rules apply for fireball vs paladin.
axe-thrower now 3shots the paladin.
So the -100 hp nerfs works in specific scenarios benefitting some certain matchups. I still wonder why TR got a specific upgrade vs DW and not the DE S:
But some minior buffs to the CL. Bah why didnt i think of this sooner should have rated council higher.. hmm
Here are my predictions:
- Writch will continue to argue that Tribe is massively underpowered and suggest that all their wins are outliers, even though this would discount over 50% of the Tribe's results.
- Despite all evidence to the contrary, Hiruma will continue to look for any possible angle showing that the Dwarves need a boost, especially against that OP Tribe team.
- DE will rise in the standings, but Tabby will continue to HAAAAAAAAAAATE THE DORRRRRRFS with a burning passion.
Here are my predictions:
- Writch will continue to argue that Tribe is massively underpowered and suggest that all their wins are outliers, even though this would discount over 50% of the Tribe's results.
Ah, but what are his motivations for such arguments? Does he truly believe that disparity exists and feel that he can persuade others to concur through hyperbolic humor? Or is he just using faux-OP claims as a pretense for derailing the pretentious pontificating that perseverates in perpetual pedantry of public posts?
The answer, my friend, is easy... follow the Ponies.
Ah, but what are his motivations for such arguments? Does he truly believe that disparity exists and feel that he can persuade others to concur through hyperbolic humor? Or is he just using faux-OP claims as a pretense for derailing the pretentious pontificating that perseverates in perpetual pedantry of public posts?
Who knows why? The Writch moves in mysterious ways. I am merely predicting those movements, not trying to explain them.
- Despite all evidence to the contrary, Hiruma will continue to look for any possible angle showing that the Dwarves need a boost, especially against that OP Tribe team.
haha :)
Before witch nerf TR > DW. That we all know
Axe-thrower 200dmg > witch 100% AoE
obv TR >> DW now. but according to the rest of the world im dead wrong here S:
To be frank, I don't really care about low level play all too much. Even the crappiest team can look OP when played against a low level player - it's not the team, it's the player.
Tiering or ranking should be done at reasonably high levels, to show the full potential of the teams. And while I agree that the game should be fun at all levels, that does not excuse dwarves topping out at such high power levels compared to the other teams - take for example pally aura. Do you think that low level players even notice that the aura is there? Or what an extra 5% of resist means in terms of effect on gameplay? Apart from -100 HP on the pally (which effectively means nothing) DW were not touched at all! Does RE think that DW are even remotely on the same playing field as the rest of the teams?
QFT
To be frank, I don't really care about low level play all too much. Even the crappiest team can look OP when played against a low level player - it's not the team, it's the player.
<<SNIP WoT>>
Does RE think that DW are even remotely on the same playing field as the rest of the teams?
QFT
What does Quantum Field Theory have to do with the OP of dwarves? Are you saying that they're nuclear powered?
Or are you asking Nat to Quit F*ing Trolling because, yeah.... we all know he is. We all absolutely love the dwarves here and are sick of his DORF-bashing. ;-)
P.S. I'm not as dumb as I look. Just playin, Jay-Dub. Plenny Love.
Before witch nerf TR > DW. That we all know
Axe-thrower 200dmg > witch 100% AoE
obv TR >> DW now. but according to the rest of the world im dead wrong here S:
Do you have any evidence for any of this? If you're going by League stats, TR did appear to enjoy a slight advantage over DW before the Tribal changes, but nothing conclusive or overwhelming (144-128 in favor of Tribe). Since version 1.3, this appears to have reversed, with Dwarves getting a small edge in terms of W/L record (89-70 in favor of Dwarves). Now, these are just raw wins and losses, and certainly not conclusive, but I don't see anything in the numbers that support your final "obvious" conclusion, either in terms of average strength or head-to-head advantage. Care to elucidate?
1) TF2
2) Dwarves
3) DE
4) Tribe
5) Council
6) Shaolin
although now the shaolin have been buffed i could see them moving up past council
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the changes won't affect the standings at all.
1. TF2
2. Dwarves
3. Tribe
4. DE
5. Council
6. Shaolin
The numbers will be closer, but the standings will stand.
Do you have any evidence for any of this?
More or less by my player experience. So i think it's valid (obv). But im only one out of.. Way toooo many people playing this game S:
If you're going by League stats, TR did appear to enjoy a slight advantage over DW before the Tribal changes, but nothing conclusive or overwhelming (144-128 in favor of Tribe). Since version 1.3, this appears to have reversed, with Dwarves getting a small edge in terms of W/L record (89-70 in favor of Dwarves). Now, these are just raw wins and losses, and certainly not conclusive, but I don't see anything in the numbers that support your final "obvious" conclusion, either in terms of average strength or head-to-head advantage. Care to elucidate?
In a head-to-head advantage with bubble you could usually avoid the dangerous parts of the corpse explosion. And it's not like this happen on a normal basis either, since you shouldnt be counting on an attack like this since its not reliable.
But axe-thrower only needs himself to achive anything. And benefits against DW the same way as he does against DE. DWs are in some ways similar to the DEs. But instead of increasing their hp so do they give out resistances (auras and beers) to try turning it into their favor. So with 3AP the axe-thrower can kill anything with 1000hp or below. he still 3shots 800hp beered units. Even units with 3x aurastack still gets 3shotted.
Usually when you balance a game you balance after the strongest players. And often did you get corpse exploded during those days? Having alot more reliable threat is better (aka axe-thrower).
Thats why i dont really get it why according to the league stats dwarves got a small advantage over tribe, yet before the axe-thrower got buffed it's the other way around. So personally i'd choose 100% corpse explosion over +200 dmg axe-throwers.
And this is the only real diffrence between "new tribe" and "old tribe".
I dunno, with the specific 3shot buff axethrower got vs paladins it might show diffrent within the next couple of months.
Hopefully i mentioned somewhere what you were looking for.
No question Tribe will be one of the better teams now, but I have a hard time getting up to play Tribe in serious games because: (1) its not always possible to deter enemy turtles; and (2) I dont really want to have a clear disadvantage against another team (Dark Elves), even if its fairly slight. Edit: actually, there is no real evidence DE had an edge in 3.1...DE's record was a mere + 2 wins over Tribe over 50 games.
I feel like you need to be a master economist to play the Tribe. You play these brilliant moves, gaining tremendous board and unit advantage, and then you run out of your secret sauce and...sometimes the result is sadness. You bought the Lamborghini, and it was cool and all, but you didnt save money for gas.
I feel like you need to be a master economist to play the Tribe. You play these brilliant moves, gaining tremendous board and unit advantage, and then you run out of your secret sauce and...sometimes the result is sadness. You bought the Lamborghini, and it was cool and all, but you didnt save money for gas.
and thaaats why i always praise aratribals tribe so much my friend :)
and i bet a newbie can own me when i play tribe, i cant play them at all S:
Usually when you balance a game you balance after the strongest players. And often did you get corpse exploded during those days? Having alot more reliable threat is better (aka axe-thrower).
Against good Tribe players I was constantly forced to watch for and avoid corpse explosion opportunities. I think the range and safety of the original Witch on an attack-boost tile was far more threatening, long-term, than a revised axe-thrower going on a suicide run. You rely heavily on the example of an axe-thrower vs. vanilla units, but do you really consider that a bad trade for DW? In most cases, I'd accept the loss of any vanilla Dwarven unit (aside from a Pally) in exchange for an axe-man. In contrast, a well-positioned Witch (along with judiciously distributed spiked shields) was able to control large areas without actually putting herself in danger. I think that's the primary difference.
Dwarves
Tribe
TF2
Dark Elves
Council
Shaolin
Swapped out at least 10 different items and couldn't, for the life of me, get a poisoner. To use the shaolin, you have to take a crazy amount of time to set up for combos, but also have a decent first hand.
What were the current standings, pre-1.4.2 patch?