Summary of Community Balance Discussions
Writch's extrapolation from Trip's Tribe to Shaolin. +1
For me it does nail it quite succinctly for Shaolin.
And Tribe has spiked shields which are extraordinarily effective at mitigating bubbled dwarf bombers. In combination with chain healing, one might almost think that Tribe was designed specifically to be a strong counter to dwarven specialties (and alas, it is).
As good as Tribe is ia repelling dwarven raids, Shaolin just feels wholly inadequate.
I very much appreciate ArtNJ's efforts to bring consensus and therewith present a coherent strategy to RE. Thanks so much, ArtNJ. I am very willing to support consensus, if one does emerge.
It has however become clear to me that we, the contributors to this forum, will not find concensus on specific balance adjustments. We are too different in too many different ways.
First of all, Overall skill and experience: The top skilled and most experienced players contributing here are, understandably, concerned about the teams being balanced in "perfect" play. The rest of us can't imagine perfect play are more concerned about whether a team gives us opportunities to win sometimes. Let's call volatility the chance a low skill player has to beat a high skill player. Let's say a low skill player has a 5% chance of beating a high skilled player, and let's say some adjustment (say witch splash) would increase the chance the low skill player beating the high skill player to 15%. The low skill player will think that adjustment "fun" while high skill players would likely think the opposite, since they see no reason why they should have to lose to poor players more often.
From the RE point of view, presumably wanting to attract new players, draw them in, and keep them playing once they get good, HA needs to balance volatility so that new players find it "fun" but veterans are still adequately rewarded for their skill development. However, good players and newbies are unlikely to agree on specific adjustments.
Then, on an separate axis, is team-specific skill and experience: All of us have different experiences with each team. It is now clear that getting a primarily-tribe player and a primarily-TF2 player to agree on snipers, or anything specific at all, is not going to happen. There are also factions within team groups. People have "pet" tactics they deem critical to the success of that team, while people who play against that team, believe exactly that tactic to be "the problem" with the team.
If we were, in the real world, given a mandate to solve this and come to consensus, we could. We could designate representatives from each of the faction, put them in a room and tell them to come to consensus. I imagine RE does something like this.
I hope RE looks at the summary, chooses and implements 1, or at most 2, small adjustments per team (DW, TF2 and SL) and then evaluates. I also hope they take a short break from making new teams and deal with client bugs. I thoroughly appreciate the progress they've made on server stability.
Confused Post
First of all, Overall skill and experience: The top skilled and most experienced players contributing here are, understandably, concerned about the teams being balanced in "perfect" play. The rest of us can't imagine perfect play are more concerned about whether a team gives us opportunities to win sometimes. Let's call volatility the chance a low skill player has to beat a high skill player. Let's say a low skill player has a 5% chance of beating a high skilled player, and let's say some adjustment (say witch splash) would increase the chance the low skill player beating the high skill player to 15%. The low skill player will think that adjustment "fun" while high skill players would likely think the opposite, since they see no reason why they should have to lose to poor players more often.
and thats one of the reasons i hate tf2 S:
Maybe the "low skilled players" aren't quite as low skilled as they think
High skill or low skill, doesnt matter that much everyone benefits from balance. There has never been any evidence that win % with the various teams differ based on rate.
i do believe part of shaolin's issue is that they require skilled positioning in order to set up their combo points. they need a buff but i don't think it should be anything radical because the more people use them the better their league rating will be IMO
I would still look at offense more than defense for Shaolin. The only weakness in Shaolin defense is a below-average healer, otherwise they have middle-of-the-road base HP and both armor and helms. Fixing the healing a bit will help their tactical positioning, which is probably important if they're to be combo-based, but it just won't matter if they can't kill anything without using 2AP moving to set up a combo. It will be a little better when they have Bamboos during the game and can snipe with a Poisoner and stomp, but when that's their best way to kill things it shows how problematic the combo system is.
If I had to focus on one thing in particular it would be combo potions. Unless your opponent leave a unit in range, to benefit from a combo potion you have to move, move, potion, attack, attack, leaving nothing left to stomp.
The more I think about it the more I like an idea I tossed out there on one of the shaolin sucks threads...giving the Taoist an aoe heal comparable to the grenadier aoe explosion. Heals main target for 400 with a splash to surrounding squares for 100 to all allied units (including casting taoist). Debuff removal applies only to main target of heal. I don't think this idea got any feedback on the other post. It would help deal with aoe and allow the Taoist to be a little closer to the action to help with combos.
The more I think about it the more I like an idea I tossed out there on one of the shaolin sucks threads...giving the Taoist an aoe heal comparable to the grenadier aoe explosion. Heals main target for 400 with a splash to surrounding squares for 100 to all allied units (including casting taoist). Debuff removal applies only to main target of heal. I don't think this idea got any feedback on the other post. It would help deal with aoe and allow the Taoist to be a little closer to the action to help with combos.
Yes, I could not find it before (and forgot who's idea it was that I saw), but your idea here is what I referred to on the 1st of the two points at the top of this page of this thread:
So I say the key to balancing the Shaolin lies within unlocking that baked-in clustering side-effect. This means:
- Area effect healing for the Taoists and/or
- Charging ability for their Monks.
Maybe if the Taoist consumes a blue pot, he can then "qi-attack" his own allied heroes for a "combo heal" or explode heal as you describe here.
Another thing for Shaolin considering they face a 5 action limit (like most teams)
what would be ideal is
Move unit1 - attack
Move unit 2 - atack
what really happens most of the time is
Move unit1 - attackx3 - Move back
why? because the damage added by the first combo point is not worth it it's better to attack with the same unit more times and have time
to retreat.
I would suggest the 1st damage bonus of the Shaolin be increased at the very least by 50
Maybe if the Taoist consumes a blue pot, he can then "qi-attack" his own allied heroes for a "combo heal" or explode heal as you describe here.
that would be very interesting healer consume potion and then do an AoE heal if on friendly target or damage if on enemy.
Shorter version of what I'm been saying is the problem with combo points, except with the proviso that +50 wouldn't do much.
Well, it would let Poisoner + any other 200 damage hit combo to kill a vanilla 800 HP target, but that's all it would do.
Shorter version of what I'm been saying is the problem with combo points, except with the proviso that +50 wouldn't do much.
Well, it would let Poisoner + any other 200 damage hit combo to kill a vanilla 800 HP target, but that's all it would do.
you say "that's all it would do" but that slight change would make a big impact for the shaolin!
Shorter version of what I'm been saying is the problem with combo points, except with the proviso that +50 wouldn't do much.
Well, it would let Poisoner + any other 200 damage hit combo to kill a vanilla 800 HP target, but that's all it would do.
you say "that's all it would do" but that slight change would make a big impact for the shaolin!
Shaolin needs buffs, but im afraid they might get OP if they get buffed and shadow hp remains untouched. :)
so +50 dmg on the first combo would make Shaolin OP?
so +50 dmg on the first combo would make Shaolin OP?
im saying that they need buffs. Im just saying we should pay attention how much we buff them or they will come too powerfull since the shadow is really strong. I never said they would be OP by just buffing that part.
Shorter version of what I'm been saying is the problem with combo points, except with the proviso that +50 wouldn't do much.
Well, it would let Poisoner + any other 200 damage hit combo to kill a vanilla 800 HP target, but that's all it would do.
you say "that's all it would do" but that slight change would make a big impact for the shaolin!
Shaolin needs buffs, but im afraid they might get OP if they get buffed and shadow hp remains untouched. :)
yes that is a good way to balance the buff! maybe down to 900 (making it susceptible to450 or 300 physical damage attacks) but not from magical when unarmored? i guess the exact number would have to be worked out by RE
I think nerfing the respawn item for TF2 might be enough for the next patch actually. Nerfing too much aint good anyways :)
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... One of the great strengths of the Tribe is that they have, through their array of consumables and special abilities, more available (and often hidden) exchanges than anyone else. This increased flexibility can (and often does) lead to more opponent mistakes, simply because it is so easy to miss or misunderstand possible moves, but it is a team advantage whether or not their opponent misreads the board. That's the intangible strength of the Tribe that (I believe) has to somehow be factored into all of the numbers: variable damage (Axe-thrower, Warrior, Rage), board-shaping powers (Typhoon, Chieftain), and consumables (4 burst-damage boosters vs. 2 for most other teams) translate into more options. More options translates into more threats that the opponent must take into consideration. More potential threats will lead to either opponent mistakes or more limited move options -- BOTH of which are a net positive for the Tribe. That's why I don't think someone could ever just "stop making mistakes" to eliminate the advantage that the various Tribal surprises afford.
It is precisely THIS breakdown of The Tribe that, once upon a time, gave me so much hope for Shaolin.... they were another potential "Tribe" for the same reasons:
Qualitatively, the Shaolin's flexibility and myriad options have so much potential. Quantitatively, the Shaolin's make-up only pales next to Tribe's consumables - but then again, Tribe can't rez enemy KO'd heroes. Surely I can't be the only one that sees the advantage in the threat of SL rezzed heroes as burdensome for planning against as is Tribe rage (i.e. "Can I afford to leave a corpse behind?" SL will make you pay for it if you don't stomp it, but Tribe will make you pay for it if you do).
In fact, options are where Shaolin absolutely shine when the deck populates well for them (biting my tongue about the bamboo-bug for now). We have increasingly read anecdotal accounts of this as more folk become familiar with these dynamics and post proselytizing Shaolin Apologetics. Equally, the case may as easily be made for TF2 - sure their numbers make trading an easy option, but isn't TF2's numerical superiority most of all an enormous options multiplier?
Now if one accepts this parallel, the Big Question that emerges is: So where lies the big difference when it comes to results? Answer: Defense. More specifically, AoE defense (IMHO). As pointed out in posts elsewhere above, The Tribe can shrug off much of AoE if they have Shammies deployed because chain-heal allows the Tribe to be more dispersed while at the same time allowiing a multiple healings. In stark contrast, the Shaolin are more vulnerable because of their tendency - nay, necessity - for bunching-up. Because they simply must for good offensive combo punching and to keep within reach of their feeble Taoists.
So I say the key to balancing the Shaolin lies within unlocking that baked-in clustering side-effect. This means:
Writch
Equal parts cur, mud, and gin.
Never shaken, but often stirred.
Serving suggestion: Usually taken with a pinch of salt.