Challenge me in Hero Academy (username: Gribbs) if you want to spar
But seriously, I would absolutely hate the change. As I have said many times before, the Heavy is TF2's ONLY high-hp unit, all others are 800 or 650, with all but the medic having no resists. Every team needs a meatshield, and making the Heavy weaker will only make TF2 more prone to AoE, which is not a good way to balance them. TF2 are already squishy enough. Nerfing their only high-hp unit would make them far too squishy. The Jarate change is far more appropriate.
Not sure why you think this is my idea. It isn't. I was joking about the sucks thing by the way. Apoligies if I came across as hostile or anything, but let's not escalate over a game.
Yes, it will become much harder to stomp a +3 unit, but I don't think that's much of a bad thing. As it is now, any +3 unit against TF2 is pretty much doomed, forcing you to undesirably spread out the upgrades across multiple units. The threat of Jarate is simply too much and scrolls have far less unit sniping potential. I think that aspect of TF2 needs nerfing, and that's exactly why I support the change. I also think you're underestimating the massive potential of the sniper+jarate combo, which would still be extremely effective, even against +3'd unit if I've done my maths right. I completely agree with you that the Jarate change is a bigger change than the Heavy change, but I don't like the Heavy change because, IMO, it ruins the flavour of the Heavy and makes an already very squishy team even more squishy. I'm more so against the Heavy nerf because it will make TF2 more boring that it will make them too weak.
As for the second paragraph, TF2 are already extremely susceptible to two drills / dragons on their medics anyway, and I just can't see anyone seriously prioritising engineers over medics. So I don't agree with your argument there. Further, TF2 are by far the most versatile team in the game due to their array of units and abilities, so I don't think a little bit more of depedancy will hurt them. Also, the majority of 'slow' games in my experience with TF2 have been against players who don't really know how to use them and just hide on their side of the board and buff all their units up anyway. I don't agree with the 'already' qualifier against good opponents, especially when compared to the dwarves.
But hey, if the Jarate nerf turns out to be too much, and it might be too much (the train situation definitely would have to be looked at) I'm also for the respawn token costing an AP, which I also think would be a better nerf that the Heavy idea.
Respawn token costing an ap wouldnt do much by itself. That is just a secondary nerf we can use if the primary nerf doesnt quite do the job.
Jarate nerf was my idea, and I'm standing by it! :)
Seriously though, no other team can 2AP kill a 20/20 960 unit like TF2. Except for a raged sworded Axethrower, and he doesn't get to retreat after he stomps, and doesn't ignore LOS like Pyro.. isn't range 3 like Soldier... (EDIT: Just thought of scrolled sworded Archer. I guess she counts. The whole CL is built around her, though.) If you think about it, a scrolled 300 damage unit can't even kill a 650(780) 20/20 unit in one hit - that 300 unit will do 720 damage with scroll.
So yes, it was my intention to nerf TF2 against +3 units, and a deserved nerf IMO. I see the situation with bubbled +3 grenadiers, but then everyone has problems against bubbled +3 grenadiers. I would support a DW nerf just as hard as this (pally aura doesn't stack with equipment resists, so that's -1AP to kill top end units) but yall didn't like that. Personally, I think non-stacking pally aura is way too light a touch to affect DW endgame. Anwyay I'll put up the jarate table again.
Table of Jarate damage shots
Current Jarate (-175%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
0% resist 825 | 1072.5 | 1100 | 1182.5
20% resist 765 | 994.5 | 1020 | 1096.5
40% resist 705 | 916.5 | 940 | 1010.5
Nerfed Jarate (-150%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
0% resist 750 | 975 | 1000 | 1075
20% resist 690 | 897 | 920 | 989
40% resist 630 | 819 | 840 | 903
430 Sniper shot 380 Sniper shot
0% 20% 40% 0% 20% 40%
430 344 258 380 304 228
390 damage plus sniper 1st shot 390 damage plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
1 | 820* | 656 | 492 1 | 770* | 616 | 462
2 | 1210 | 968* | 726 2 | 1160 | 928* | 696
3 | 1600 | 1280 | 960* 3 | 1550 | 1240 | 930*
300plus sniper 1st shot 300plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
1 | 730 | 584 | 438 1 | 680 | 544 | 408
2 | 1030 | 824* | 618 2 | 980 | 784* | 588
3 | 1330 | 1064 | 798 3 | 1280 | 1024 | 768
260plus sniper 1st shot 260plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
1 | 690 | 552 | 414 1 | 640 | 512 | 384
2 | 950 | 760 | 570 2 | 900 | 720 | 540
3 | 1210* | 968 | 726 3 | 1160* | 928 | 696
| 0% | 20% | 40%
430 | 1182.5 | 1096.5* | 1010.5
400 | 1100 | 1020* | 940
380 | 1045 | 969* | 893
350 | 962.5 | 892.5* | 822.5
Monster VMs are now +1AP to kill by upgraded sniper, all other 960 20/20 units are +1 AP to kill by unupgraded sniper. No practical change to the rest.
But honestly, you can spend the AP to move a scout up and take that last dinky hit. Or hell, you have a sniper in range already (obviously), just take the extra shot (1AP jar, 2AP attack) and run 10 tiles to stomp (2-1AP scout) and retreat. I mean, is that so much worse? Maybe it's some DE thing, but I really don't see how the sniper nerf helps the other races against TF2.
EDIT - underlining doesn't come out for some reason. I'll use asterisks.
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Regarding train map discussion. Just wanted to point out that if you activate the train on your own turn you can inflict 400 physical damage to all units on the track. However if the unit was already ko'd it gets stomped. If the unit was friendly it will not get Hp reduced below 100 Hp if it had more than 100 Hp before the train hit. By design the train cannot ko friendlies. This allows you to remove debuffs like the annihiltor or poisoner tags. I assume this is true for tf2 jarate. I believe this is to prevent corpse creation for wraith feedings and perhaps some other important consequence like ko'ing your last unit on the field that would cause a submit loss button event which doesn't exist in this game.
Hero Academy: johnjanitor
Here it is:
@Mrwho Perhaps you don't know, but there are already ways to deal with jarate even at its current strength. For example, runemetal a naked imp and with priestess support start chipping away at TF2s units. Sooner or later, unless you make a mistake, TF2 player will be forced to use jarate on the the annoying imba imp because the losses will simply be too large. And once 1 jarate is gone, you start playing VM's, +2 or +3. TF2 has no chance in this scenario. There are similar scenarios and ways to force jarate for other teams, too.
The advantage of jarate is the threat of prejarate on +3 units. But if it gets nerfed, this threat will not nearly be as large, if not disappear alltogether, and ppl will play +3 units all the time. Then, you better have enough 390 units on the field to 2-shot them, otherwise it's game over.
And you are deeply mistaken about engineers. Right now TF2 does NOT heavily depend on engineers, since in many instances it is better to use that one AP to place a 300 dmg dealer forward and create a threat instead of buffing him to 390 and leave behind. 300 hitting TF2s can 2-shot enemy's jarated +3s. However, if jarate gets nerfed, having 390 units on the field will be a must, since otherwise enemy's +3 superheroes will quickly wreck havoc. That's when TF2 will become extremely dependent on engineers (and they are already somewhat dependent on medics), and loss of engis early in the game or having them in the 2nd half of the deck will be a tombstone for TF2.
@Tabby See the above posts why jarate nerf will severely disable TF2. It's not just a 100 hp difference, it's a 1AP difference, and that's a big deal. In its current state, it takes 2AP for TF2 to kill a +3 (1AP to jar 1 AP to KO), same as for scroll. But if you factor in the set up (first need an engi, then a 300 hitter (pref not a soldier), then to buff to 390, then to prejarate), it becomes clear why jarate should stay the way it is.
Out of all other teams, you, the imba-DE, should know by now how strong DE are vs TF2 already!
Just to clear up one point, 300 damage units would still 2 shot 20/20 960 units, so that's no different from before, but would make a difference for 390 units, who would require +1 AP to kill.
I think TF2 (and DW) need a lot more than the minor proposals so far. Just changing the sniper is not going to bring the rating down from 1250 to 1150, IMO. I think multiple +1 AP to kill situations need to be placed on TF2 attacks, and multiple -1 AP to kill on DW defense. Still, that's just My humble opinion, and if here's no consensus, well. :) I am sure that those 2 changes will be insufficient, however.
@aratribal imba DE? I haven't beat a good TF2 in a long time.. >.> might just be me though, I seem to be losing my touch..
Yes, I do know this, but it forces the player to play more tactically instead of just mindlessly +3ing unist. Even in your example, you still would have to sacrifice two runes to get rid of the jarates, which is a massive sacrifice.
Yes, people will +3 units much more often. Just like against any other team. The threat from the Jarate was already OP as it was IMO, which is exactly why I agree with the change. I don't see why TF2 should have such a larger 1-shot threat than any other team. And besides, you're ignoring the fact that the sniper+jarate could still 1-shot a +3 unit.
so if we remove aura stacking and the 5% bonus dmg, and reduce annhilator debuff what more do you want on the dwarves? :) aint their middlegame aura-stacking a major problem when all the 20/20 960 units gets 35/35 960 standing at the front line dealing massive dmg each turn?
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25% 960 HP is the tipping point between 4AP to kill and 5AP to kill with a 300 damage unit, so removing aura stacking doesn't really help. Add a bubble and that's 6AP. >.> 1 aura is the major problem..
Hmm. You're right. I'll have to look at the numbers again - not my intention to remove a 2 shot 300 dmg kill with jarate. Still, the general point stands - no 1 shot kills of 20/20 960 units
It's 2AP. First jarate, then kill. Just like the scroll. Sure, prejar is much easier than prescroll, but even then it takes a long time to set up (engi, 300dmg unit, upgrade at a safe distance, jar, kill on the next turn), can be countered (by placing jarated units in the back to absorb splash), and is TF2's only chance vs 2 out of 3 potential +3s.
Yep, that is a good point. I still agree with the general principle of nerfing Jarate though, though I'm not one to look at the numbers.
Tribe didnt get nerfed Aratribal -- they got one nerf and one buff.
Council has been one of the worst teams for a while. They have always looked better than they were on raw win-loss because of their ability to beat up DE. This changed a little when Steam came out, because PC peeps didnt want to pay $4.99 for a lot of teams, so you had a lot of 1200's playing Council against more experienced DE players. So Council's win-loss record looks a little worse than it did pre-Shaolin, but its performance rating is about the same.
@Mrwho you almost always sacrifice two runes to get rid of 2 jarates. That's how the matchup vs Tf2 goes. But if you manage to save any number of helms and shields and put them on non-jarated units, you are in great shape vs TF2. And Runemetals vs TF2 matter much less than vs other factions, since TF2 is so squishy squashy.
See my response above to tabby as to why 1-shot prejarated kill should remain in the arsenal vs TF2.
And as far as the slowness of the team, unless you have several strong units in the opening hand (those are spy, heavy, pyro and soldier), you practically are forced to turtle and wait till you have 3 or so of them on the field before you can advance. Because if you push earlier, they'll be KO'ed and you won't have any backup units to continue trading. And with jarate nerf they in addition become severely dependent on engineers, since they'll need upgrades to have a chance of dealing with +3s. Making them even slower, more susceptible to AOE, early pushes, etc.
And engis are of value currently, they aint useless, and they do make an AP difference justifying their use (unlike what you said). Upgrades on medics, heavys and demos are of value in nearly every game. Upgrades on other units are situational. But if jarate gets nerfed, upgrades on most units will be a must, and knowing this I guarantee I'll kill your engis in a blink of an eye and you will lose almost as fast.
Yep, TF2 are susceptible to slow starts, but so are other teams. If council gets no archers they're going to be very slow, shaolin and the tribe take time to get good formations as well. If anything I think TF2 and Dwarves are the most adept at early rushes. I like how first you argued against me because you thought I said that TF2 relied on engineers, and now you're arguing against me because you thought I said the exact opposite. I agree with your assessment on how useful engineers are right now, but I don't think it'd hurt to have them more useful, nor do I think it would make them more turtley than other teams, especially when compared to the Dwarves.