Summary of Community Balance Discussions
EDIT: I just checked Gribbs' math, and I think he may be in error regarding jarate'd train damage. Don't trains do 450? If so, -150% would actually not allow standard 960 20/20 units to cancel the jarate effect. However, it would become easier for Dwarves and DE to pull off the trick.
The train is 400 physical. I believe my math stands correct.
Moreover, add a pre-jarate spiked chieftan to the consideration on the train map. Right now (400 * 2.75) = 1,100 exactly. ANY reduction to jarate would significantly impact the Tribe vs TF2 match-up on the train map, unless the Train is also made more powerful.
The train is 400 physical. I believe my math stands correct.
Moreover, add a pre-jarate spiked chieftan to the consideration on the train map. Right now (400 * 2.75) = 1,100 exactly. ANY reduction to jarate would significantly impact the Tribe vs TF2 match-up on the train map, unless the Train is also made more powerful.
Huh... Not sure where I got 450 from.
In that case, this is definitely another big reason to avoid nerfing jarate.
And why no mention about reducing Heavy's HP to 1000 in the original post?
I am happy to add this, since it seems like a viable choice to me. However, it did not seem to have much support when we discussed it.
since like all tf2 players disagree? :)
Exactly, and that's because the idea sucks! :p
But seriously, I would absolutely hate the change. As I have said many times before, the Heavy is TF2's ONLY high-hp unit, all others are 800 or 650, with all but the medic having no resists. Every team needs a meatshield, and making the Heavy weaker will only make TF2 more prone to AoE, which is not a good way to balance them. TF2 are already squishy enough. Nerfing their only high-hp unit would make them far too squishy. The Jarate change is far more appropriate.
Lol, really? So your Jarate idea is far better, you say?
With all the +3 jarared units taking 2hits instead of 1 to be KO'ed by 390 hitting units and 3 hits instead of 2 from 300 hitting units, this will be a major game changer. Bubbled +3 dwarves will run around like nothing happend, even after jarate has been applied. Archers will be able to position themselves much closer to the center map, knowing that it takes 1 extra ap to kill them. DE will be able to spread equipment more efficiently, because helmed necro with a 35hp soul bomb or DE's potion will be able to take 2 hits when jarated, allowing DE to equip a shield on someone else. +3 Windblades will cause just as much trouble for TF2 as +3 wizards. Etc.
Lastly, and most importantly, TF2 will become extremely dependent on engineers, since only with engis TF2 is able to get 390 units on the field and attempt to kill prejarated units. Additionally, TF2 will become even slower than they already are - gotta get an engi out, then equip a 300 unit, then jarate a target, then try kill unless they kill first. This means 2 things: 1. TF2 will become even more susceptible to early game pressure and 2. Two drills to engi's faces or 2 dragons and its game over - jarate or not, it won't matter anymore, since +3 units will be extremely hard to kill.
Your genius jarate idea will be a much much bigger nerf to TF2 than Heavy's HP reduction to 1000. And that is why it sucks.
Not sure why you think this is my idea. It isn't. I was joking about the sucks thing by the way. Apoligies if I came across as hostile or anything, but let's not escalate over a game.
Yes, it will become much harder to stomp a +3 unit, but I don't think that's much of a bad thing. As it is now, any +3 unit against TF2 is pretty much doomed, forcing you to undesirably spread out the upgrades across multiple units. The threat of Jarate is simply too much and scrolls have far less unit sniping potential. I think that aspect of TF2 needs nerfing, and that's exactly why I support the change. I also think you're underestimating the massive potential of the sniper+jarate combo, which would still be extremely effective, even against +3'd unit if I've done my maths right. I completely agree with you that the Jarate change is a bigger change than the Heavy change, but I don't like the Heavy change because, IMO, it ruins the flavour of the Heavy and makes an already very squishy team even more squishy. I'm more so against the Heavy nerf because it will make TF2 more boring that it will make them too weak.
As for the second paragraph, TF2 are already extremely susceptible to two drills / dragons on their medics anyway, and I just can't see anyone seriously prioritising engineers over medics. So I don't agree with your argument there. Further, TF2 are by far the most versatile team in the game due to their array of units and abilities, so I don't think a little bit more of depedancy will hurt them. Also, the majority of 'slow' games in my experience with TF2 have been against players who don't really know how to use them and just hide on their side of the board and buff all their units up anyway. I don't agree with the 'already' qualifier against good opponents, especially when compared to the dwarves.
But hey, if the Jarate nerf turns out to be too much, and it might be too much (the train situation definitely would have to be looked at) I'm also for the respawn token costing an AP, which I also think would be a better nerf that the Heavy idea.
Respawn token costing an ap wouldnt do much by itself. That is just a secondary nerf we can use if the primary nerf doesnt quite do the job.
Jarate nerf was my idea, and I'm standing by it! :)
Seriously though, no other team can 2AP kill a 20/20 960 unit like TF2. Except for a raged sworded Axethrower, and he doesn't get to retreat after he stomps, and doesn't ignore LOS like Pyro.. isn't range 3 like Soldier... (EDIT: Just thought of scrolled sworded Archer. I guess she counts. The whole CL is built around her, though.) If you think about it, a scrolled 300 damage unit can't even kill a 650(780) 20/20 unit in one hit - that 300 unit will do 720 damage with scroll.
So yes, it was my intention to nerf TF2 against +3 units, and a deserved nerf IMO. I see the situation with bubbled +3 grenadiers, but then everyone has problems against bubbled +3 grenadiers. I would support a DW nerf just as hard as this (pally aura doesn't stack with equipment resists, so that's -1AP to kill top end units) but yall didn't like that. Personally, I think non-stacking pally aura is way too light a touch to affect DW endgame. Anwyay I'll put up the jarate table again.
Table of Jarate damage shots
Current Jarate (-175%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
===================================
0% resist 825 | 1072.5 | 1100 | 1182.5
20% resist 765 | 994.5 | 1020 | 1096.5
40% resist 705 | 916.5 | 940 | 1010.5
Nerfed Jarate (-150%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
===================================
0% resist 750 | 975 | 1000 | 1075
20% resist 690 | 897 | 920 | 989
40% resist 630 | 819 | 840 | 903
430 Sniper shot 380 Sniper shot
0% 20% 40% 0% 20% 40%
430 344 258 380 304 228
390 damage plus sniper 1st shot 390 damage plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
=============================== ===============================
1 | 820* | 656 | 492 1 | 770* | 616 | 462
2 | 1210 | 968* | 726 2 | 1160 | 928* | 696
3 | 1600 | 1280 | 960* 3 | 1550 | 1240 | 930*
300plus sniper 1st shot 300plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
=============================== ===============================
1 | 730 | 584 | 438 1 | 680 | 544 | 408
2 | 1030 | 824* | 618 2 | 980 | 784* | 588
3 | 1330 | 1064 | 798 3 | 1280 | 1024 | 768
260plus sniper 1st shot 260plus sniper 1st shot
| 0% | 20% | 40% | 0% | 20% | 40%
=============================== ===============================
1 | 690 | 552 | 414 1 | 640 | 512 | 384
2 | 950 | 760 | 570 2 | 900 | 720 | 540
3 | 1210* | 968 | 726 3 | 1160* | 928 | 696
Jarate -1.75
| 0% | 20% | 40%
=====================================
430 | 1182.5 | 1096.5* | 1010.5
400 | 1100 | 1020* | 940
380 | 1045 | 969* | 893
350 | 962.5 | 892.5* | 822.5
Monster VMs are now +1AP to kill by upgraded sniper, all other 960 20/20 units are +1 AP to kill by unupgraded sniper. No practical change to the rest.
But honestly, you can spend the AP to move a scout up and take that last dinky hit. Or hell, you have a sniper in range already (obviously), just take the extra shot (1AP jar, 2AP attack) and run 10 tiles to stomp (2-1AP scout) and retreat. I mean, is that so much worse? Maybe it's some DE thing, but I really don't see how the sniper nerf helps the other races against TF2.
EDIT - underlining doesn't come out for some reason. I'll use asterisks.
Regarding train map discussion. Just wanted to point out that if you activate the train on your own turn you can inflict 400 physical damage to all units on the track. However if the unit was already ko'd it gets stomped. If the unit was friendly it will not get Hp reduced below 100 Hp if it had more than 100 Hp before the train hit. By design the train cannot ko friendlies. This allows you to remove debuffs like the annihiltor or poisoner tags. I assume this is true for tf2 jarate. I believe this is to prevent corpse creation for wraith feedings and perhaps some other important consequence like ko'ing your last unit on the field that would cause a submit loss button event which doesn't exist in this game.
Respawn token costing an ap wouldnt do much by itself. That is just a secondary nerf we can use if the primary nerf doesnt quite do the job.
You know, I was pondering this, and I think it might affect TF2 somewhat. I'm thinking of setting up a forward position where TF2 has to decide whether to spend 5AP to killstomp my forward unit, or spend the 1AP to respawn your heavy/medic and leave my forward unit in range for possibly more mayhem.
Currently, it's a straightforward question of whether the respawn is worth more than the unit, and if the unit in question is a medic or heavy, it's not a hard choice for TF2.
By design the train cannot ko friendlies. This allows you to remove debuffs like the annihiltor or poisoner tags. I assume this is true for tf2 jarate.
Nope, TF2 Jarate is the exception to the friendly train suicide mechanics. If the 400 physical hit is enough to KO your jarated unit, the friendly train ride will do a KO-stomp rather than the 100-HP floor.
...other important consequence like ko'ing your last unit on the field that would cause a submit loss button event which doesn't exist in this game.
This might be right, but the one situation I can think of where it would be even possible would be with Shaolin with bamboo since any other team would need a second unit to even trigger the train who would also obviously be safe from the train.
Actually, that just got me thinking. What would happen in TF2 vs Shaolin on the train map if the final Shaolin unit was jarated and did a bamboo suicide? It seems that you could actually create a "subit loss" event. Would the Hero Academy servers come moaning to a halt? Would SixOkay not be OKAY?
Why axe thrower nerf? Because the 66% CE buff will throw TR into overpowered mode unless he is nerfed?
In a word, yes. =)
Reports of the Tribe's death have been greatly exaggerated. Even with their much-publicized unpopularity and inability to deal consistent AOE damage, they are doing fine (both statistically and anecdotally) against everyone except TF2. So what would happen to balance, assuming they regain some of their old corpse-explosion swagger? With even the modest 66% CE buff, an enraged, sworded witch will once again be able to deal 800+ damage on a meated corpse explosion. Anyone who doesn't recognize the importance of that benchmark wasn't around for pre-patch Tribe splosions. Allowing typhoons to move friendly KOed heroes is just as significant, since Tribe corpses are currently one of the few ways to keep valuable units from getting swept into danger. If those two proposed buffs are meaningful (and I think it's obvious that they are), there MUST be nerfs applied elsewhere to keep the Tribe from becoming too strong. Frankly, if friendly corpses become mobile, I'm of the opinion that ANOTHER minor nerf ought to be considered, such as reducing axe-thrower health.
I think the previous changes to Tribe (nerfed corpse explosion and buffed axe-thrower) were the right ones -- they just went too far. Backing each change off a bit just makes sense.
And to further elaborate on this, the 66% CE increase that I personally favor is NOT for massive meated corpse explosions. It is for pure small AOE damage to surrounding units, and will mostly affect the matchup vs TF2. Example: a clump of TF2 units is hanging out in the back. A rune metaled witch moves-meats-kills-CEs-retreats. At 66% CE, TF2 units surrounding the victim will each take 200 damage (66% of 300), leaving them with 600 hp or less (except heavys and medics). Which implies that on the next TR turn, unless TF2 heals up, any of TR front line units (axe throwers, warriors, runemetaled witch) will be able to 2-shot those with 600hp left. Which will be very nice for TR and may push their rating from 1190 to 1200.
Other matchups won't be affected by this buff as much, which is why it is a very small buff in the first place. And it certainly does not warrant a nerf to the axe thrower. Current axe thrower is most useful vs DE, the matchup which was tough for TR in the past. And it should stay this way, in my humble opinion, of course O_o
As far as TR moving their own corpses, I still don't know where I stand with this. But it may not be as big of a buff to TR as it seems. Imagine a common scenario: an imp approaches and 3-hit KO's axe thrower, dragging him away from shammy's chain heal. With the new wave able to move TR corpses, TR can wave both the imp and the axe thrower corpse towards the shammy, rez axeman, and KO the imp in 3 hits (not worth to meat-KO unless its a +3imp). Then priestess can move, raise imp, KS axe thrower and have 1 AP to spare. In the end, the exchange still favors DE (1 imp for axeman+wave).
I do think taht this typhoon change should be mentioned in the OP, since it was brought up by the community in the past and since RE mentioned something. Let me try and find that post. Whether RE will decide to implement this or not, we will not know until the patch.
@Mrwho Perhaps you don't know, but there are already ways to deal with jarate even at its current strength. For example, runemetal a naked imp and with priestess support start chipping away at TF2s units. Sooner or later, unless you make a mistake, TF2 player will be forced to use jarate on the the annoying imba imp because the losses will simply be too large. And once 1 jarate is gone, you start playing VM's, +2 or +3. TF2 has no chance in this scenario. There are similar scenarios and ways to force jarate for other teams, too.
The advantage of jarate is the threat of prejarate on +3 units. But if it gets nerfed, this threat will not nearly be as large, if not disappear alltogether, and ppl will play +3 units all the time. Then, you better have enough 390 units on the field to 2-shot them, otherwise it's game over.
And you are deeply mistaken about engineers. Right now TF2 does NOT heavily depend on engineers, since in many instances it is better to use that one AP to place a 300 dmg dealer forward and create a threat instead of buffing him to 390 and leave behind. 300 hitting TF2s can 2-shot enemy's jarated +3s. However, if jarate gets nerfed, having 390 units on the field will be a must, since otherwise enemy's +3 superheroes will quickly wreck havoc. That's when TF2 will become extremely dependent on engineers (and they are already somewhat dependent on medics), and loss of engis early in the game or having them in the 2nd half of the deck will be a tombstone for TF2.
@Tabby See the above posts why jarate nerf will severely disable TF2. It's not just a 100 hp difference, it's a 1AP difference, and that's a big deal. In its current state, it takes 2AP for TF2 to kill a +3 (1AP to jar 1 AP to KO), same as for scroll. But if you factor in the set up (first need an engi, then a 300 hitter (pref not a soldier), then to buff to 390, then to prejarate), it becomes clear why jarate should stay the way it is.
Out of all other teams, you, the imba-DE, should know by now how strong DE are vs TF2 already!
Except you forget one thing: an enraged runed witch will never have a corpse to explode. If witch is enraged, this means the corpse has already been stomped O_O
Not so.
Witches often have the opportunity to splode friendly corpses, since their opponents will be looking for any possible excuse to avoid stomping them. Add in the fact that freshly summoned units can attack (and KO) without causing the Witch to lose her rage, and it's a very plausible scenario. Add in the potential for multiple corpse explosion chain reactions (especially against previously weakened forces), and you've got the whole reason the mechanic got nerfed in the first place. I'm still not completely sure that 66% is the right number -- maybe 75% is better -- but either way, it will impact even non-TF2 matches.
A runed witch on a sword tile, you say? If it manages to wave-pull, hit, hit, meat, corpse explode, KO'ing 1-2 800 hp units, well, that's a lot of items to KO (not KS) some vanilla stuff. And whoever exposes his vanilla stuff to the front lines deserves to lose regardless ;)
Sword tile works too, but that's not what I said. ;)
The simple fact remains that Tribe currently shows no signs of needing a buff in most matchups. Boosting corpse explosion and/or adding friendly corpse mobility are non-negligible buffs, and therefore necessitate non-negligible nerf(s). Dropping the axethrower bonus from +200 to +150 isn't going to break the team -- they were one of the best even back when the axe-thrower only got +100, after all.
By design the train cannot ko friendlies. This allows you to remove debuffs like the annihiltor or poisoner tags. I assume this is true for tf2 jarate.
Nope, TF2 Jarate is the exception to the friendly train suicide mechanics. If the 400 physical hit is enough to KO your jarated unit, the friendly train ride will do a KO-stomp rather than the 100-HP floor.
And this I can confirm. The trick actually won me a recent TOTY tourney match, but ONLY once I'd gotten my monk's health high enough to survive the train collision.
Just to clear up one point, 300 damage units would still 2 shot 20/20 960 units, so that's no different from before, but would make a difference for 390 units, who would require +1 AP to kill.
I think TF2 (and DW) need a lot more than the minor proposals so far. Just changing the sniper is not going to bring the rating down from 1250 to 1150, IMO. I think multiple +1 AP to kill situations need to be placed on TF2 attacks, and multiple -1 AP to kill on DW defense. Still, that's just My humble opinion, and if here's no consensus, well. :) I am sure that those 2 changes will be insufficient, however.
@aratribal imba DE? I haven't beat a good TF2 in a long time.. >.> might just be me though, I seem to be losing my touch..
@Mrwho Perhaps you don't know, but there are already ways to deal with jarate even at its current strength. For example, runemetal a naked imp and with priestess support start chipping away at TF2s units. Sooner or later, unless you make a mistake, TF2 player will be forced to use jarate on the the annoying imba imp because the losses will simply be too large. And once 1 jarate is gone, you start playing VM's, +2 or +3. TF2 has no chance in this scenario. There are similar scenarios and ways to force jarate for other teams, too.
Yes, I do know this, but it forces the player to play more tactically instead of just mindlessly +3ing unist. Even in your example, you still would have to sacrifice two runes to get rid of the jarates, which is a massive sacrifice.
The advantage of jarate is the threat of prejarate on +3 units. But if it gets nerfed, this threat will not nearly be as large, if not disappear alltogether, and ppl will play +3 units all the time. Then, you better have enough 390 units on the field to 2-shot them, otherwise it's game over.
Yes, people will +3 units much more often. Just like against any other team. The threat from the Jarate was already OP as it was IMO, which is exactly why I agree with the change. I don't see why TF2 should have such a larger 1-shot threat than any other team. And besides, you're ignoring the fact that the sniper+jarate could still 1-shot a +3 unit.
And you are deeply mistaken about engineers. Right now TF2 does NOT heavily depend on engineers, since in many instances it is better to use that one AP to place a 300 dmg dealer forward and create a threat instead of buffing him to 390 and leave behind. 300 hitting TF2s can 2-shot enemy's jarated +3s. However, if jarate gets nerfed, having 390 units on the field will be a must, since otherwise enemy's +3 superheroes will quickly wreck havoc. That's when TF2 will become extremely dependent on engineers (and they are already somewhat dependent on medics), and loss of engis early in the game or having them in the 2nd half of the deck will be a tombstone for TF2.
And you are deeply mistaken about what I actually said! ;) If you re-read my post, you won't see me saying that TF2 relies on engineers. I replied to your comment about TF2 being slow by saying that this mostly applies to the not-so experienced players who hide on their side of the board and just upgrade all their units. And this is true. I haven't noticed TF2 being so slow as you think they are when you're against decent players, in fact they're probably the most versatile and adaptble teams in the game. And any slowness is nothing compared to that of the Dwarves. So yes, I agree with you in that it would make TF2 rely more on engineers, but I don't think this would affect them too much, as the newer players use engineers on all their units anyway, and the more experienced players are quite quick with the team as it is. In fact, it'd be nice for the engineer to actually have more value, because as of now, they don't make the AP difference to justify their worth that often.
Besides, other teams rely on their runemetal currently more than TF2 relies on their engineers. And one engineer can theoretically buff an infinite amount of units. So I think you're overestimating the effects relyning a little more on engineers would have on the team.
@aratribal imba DE? I haven't beat a good TF2 in a long time.. >.> might just be me though, I seem to be losing my touch..
scrub tf2 players beat me sometimes. even when i play dwarves. obviously something is wrong, so it probably aint just you ^^
so if we remove aura stacking and the 5% bonus dmg, and reduce annhilator debuff what more do you want on the dwarves? :) aint their middlegame aura-stacking a major problem when all the 20/20 960 units gets 35/35 960 standing at the front line dealing massive dmg each turn?
25% 960 HP is the tipping point between 4AP to kill and 5AP to kill with a 300 damage unit, so removing aura stacking doesn't really help. Add a bubble and that's 6AP. >.> 1 aura is the major problem..
Just to clear up one point, 300 damage units would still 2 shot 20/20 960 units, so that's no different from before, but would make a difference for 390 units, who would require +1 AP to kill.
I think TF2 (and DW) need a lot more than the minor proposals so far. Just changing the sniper is not going to bring the rating down from 1250 to 1150, IMO. I think multiple +1 AP to kill situations need to be placed on TF2 attacks, and multiple -1 AP to kill on DW defense. Still, that's just My humble opinion, and if here's no consensus, well. :) I am sure that those 2 changes will be insufficient, however.
@aratribal imba DE? I haven't beat a good TF2 in a long time.. >.> might just be me though, I seem to be losing my touch..
Look at your chart more closely - after the nerf, it's 3 hits for 300dmg units to kill a jarated +3 960/960. First 690, then 240, then 30.
And imba DE is a figure of speech, and what I mean by that is how strong they already are. If anything, I think you are still gaining the touch, even after playing for so long, just like th rest of us.
Hmm. You're right. I'll have to look at the numbers again - not my intention to remove a 2 shot 300 dmg kill with jarate. Still, the general point stands - no 1 shot kills of 20/20 960 units
It's 2AP. First jarate, then kill. Just like the scroll. Sure, prejar is much easier than prescroll, but even then it takes a long time to set up (engi, 300dmg unit, upgrade at a safe distance, jar, kill on the next turn), can be countered (by placing jarated units in the back to absorb splash), and is TF2's only chance vs 2 out of 3 potential +3s.
Yep, that is a good point. I still agree with the general principle of nerfing Jarate though, though I'm not one to look at the numbers.
Except you forget one thing: an enraged runed witch will never have a corpse to explode. If witch is enraged, this means the corpse has already been stomped O_O
Not so.
Witches often have the opportunity to splode friendly corpses, since their opponents will be looking for any possible excuse to avoid stomping them. Add in the fact that freshly summoned units can attack (and KO) without causing the Witch to lose her rage, and it's a very plausible scenario. Add in the potential for multiple corpse explosion chain reactions (especially against previously weakened forces), and you've got the whole reason the mechanic got nerfed in the first place. I'm still not completely sure that 66% is the right number -- maybe 75% is better -- but either way, it will impact even non-TF2 matches.
A runed witch on a sword tile, you say? If it manages to wave-pull, hit, hit, meat, corpse explode, KO'ing 1-2 800 hp units, well, that's a lot of items to KO (not KS) some vanilla stuff. And whoever exposes his vanilla stuff to the front lines deserves to lose regardless ;)
Sword tile works too, but that's not what I said. ;)
The simple fact remains that Tribe currently shows no signs of needing a buff in most matchups. Boosting corpse explosion and/or adding friendly corpse mobility are non-negligible buffs, and therefore necessitate non-negligible nerf(s). Dropping the axethrower bonus from +200 to +150 isn't going to break the team -- they were one of the best even back when the axe-thrower only got +100, after all.
Oh, c'mon, really? When I have an enraged runed witch on the board, I'll spawn a non enraged unit and send him to the front lines, hoping that my opponent will kill but not stomp (and why not stomp? Witch is already enraged), and then arrange his vanilla units around the corpse?
As for the fact that tribe is doing just fine in the league, I don't know how to explain it, but I fear it is a statistical fluke. People may still be winning with tribe because their opponents make careless mistakes. Yes, in the league, on 1200-1300 levels and below (the vast majority), I've seen it, it happens all the time.
And the reason I think it's a statistical fluke is because there is another fluke in the league data, a much more obvious one: look at council. Why are they doing so poorly? They didn't get nerfed. DE, DW didn't get buffed. Tribe got nerfed, so if anything CL should be owning them now. The only team that may have changed things recently is TF2, but I don't buy that TF2 introduction alone could make CL one of the worst teams (judging by stats). There is something else going on in the league, and it it is messing up the stats.
Tribe didnt get nerfed Aratribal -- they got one nerf and one buff.
Council has been one of the worst teams for a while. They have always looked better than they were on raw win-loss because of their ability to beat up DE. This changed a little when Steam came out, because PC peeps didnt want to pay $4.99 for a lot of teams, so you had a lot of 1200's playing Council against more experienced DE players. So Council's win-loss record looks a little worse than it did pre-Shaolin, but its performance rating is about the same.
Tribe didnt get nerfed Aratribal -- they got one nerf and one buff.
Council has been one of the worst teams for a while. They have always looked better than they were on raw win-loss because of their ability to beat up DE. This changed a little when Steam came out, because PC peeps didnt want to pay $4.99 for a lot of teams, so you had a lot of 1200's playing Council against more experienced DE players. So Council's win-loss record looks a little worse than it did pre-Shaolin, but its performance rating is about the same.
CE nerf affected them much more than the axe thrower buff, so overall they got nerfed.
To clarify. Judging by the stats, you mean. CL has been one of the worst judging by the stats, skewed by steam players, correct? Well if that is the case and if your theory holds, then our league stats are not reliable anymore, as far as balance goes.
@Mrwho you almost always sacrifice two runes to get rid of 2 jarates. That's how the matchup vs Tf2 goes. But if you manage to save any number of helms and shields and put them on non-jarated units, you are in great shape vs TF2. And Runemetals vs TF2 matter much less than vs other factions, since TF2 is so squishy squashy.
See my response above to tabby as to why 1-shot prejarated kill should remain in the arsenal vs TF2.
And as far as the slowness of the team, unless you have several strong units in the opening hand (those are spy, heavy, pyro and soldier), you practically are forced to turtle and wait till you have 3 or so of them on the field before you can advance. Because if you push earlier, they'll be KO'ed and you won't have any backup units to continue trading. And with jarate nerf they in addition become severely dependent on engineers, since they'll need upgrades to have a chance of dealing with +3s. Making them even slower, more susceptible to AOE, early pushes, etc.
And engis are of value currently, they aint useless, and they do make an AP difference justifying their use (unlike what you said). Upgrades on medics, heavys and demos are of value in nearly every game. Upgrades on other units are situational. But if jarate gets nerfed, upgrades on most units will be a must, and knowing this I guarantee I'll kill your engis in a blink of an eye and you will lose almost as fast.
@Mrwho you almost always sacrifice two runes to get rid of 2 jarates. That's how the matchup vs Tf2 goes. But if you manage to save any number of helms and shields and put them on non-jarated units, you are in great shape vs TF2. And Runemetals vs TF2 matter much less than vs other factions, since TF2 is so squishy squashy.
See my response above to tabby as to why 1-shot prejarated kill should remain in the arsenal vs TF2.
And as far as the slowness of the team, unless you have several strong units in the opening hand (those are spy, heavy, pyro and soldier), you practically are forced to turtle and wait till you have 3 or so of them on the field before you can advance. Because if you push earlier, they'll be KO'ed and you won't have any backup units to continue trading. And with jarate nerf they in addition become severely dependent on engineers, since they'll need upgrades to have a chance of dealing with +3s. Making them even slower, more susceptible to AOE, early pushes, etc.
And engis are of value currently, they aint useless, and they do make an AP difference justifying their use (unlike what you said). Upgrades on medics, heavys and demos are of value in nearly every game. Upgrades on other units are situational. But if jarate gets nerfed, upgrades on most units will be a must, and knowing this I guarantee I'll kill your engis in a blink of an eye and you will lose almost as fast.
But again, 'that's how TF2 goes' is my whole point. It being guaranteed that 2/3 of your strong units are doomed from the start is what makes them so powerful, and that's why I think it should be changed. It's much harder to kill a high value unit with a scroll on another team than with a jarate.
A one-shot pre-jarate still would remain in the arsenal with the sniper, if I'm not mistaken.
Yep, TF2 are susceptible to slow starts, but so are other teams. If council gets no archers they're going to be very slow, shaolin and the tribe take time to get good formations as well. If anything I think TF2 and Dwarves are the most adept at early rushes. I like how first you argued against me because you thought I said that TF2 relied on engineers, and now you're arguing against me because you thought I said the exact opposite. I agree with your assessment on how useful engineers are right now, but I don't think it'd hurt to have them more useful, nor do I think it would make them more turtley than other teams, especially when compared to the Dwarves.
Oh, c'mon, really? When I have an enraged runed witch on the board, I'll spawn a non enraged unit and send him to the front lines, hoping that my opponent will kill but not stomp (and why not stomp? Witch is already enraged), and then arrange his vanilla units around the corpse?
As for the fact that tribe is doing just fine in the league, I don't know how to explain it, but I fear it is a statistical fluke. People may still be winning with tribe because their opponents make careless mistakes. Yes, in the league, on 1200-1300 levels and below (the vast majority), I've seen it, it happens all the time.
Yes, really. You are conflating my two separate scenarios, which might explain why you find them so unlikely. First, Tribe corpses are often left unstomped, either due to lack of APs or the desire to keep the attacker out of range. These corpses can make great splode fodder, assuming enough damage can be done to make it worth the meat (which is currently never, of course, but may be relevant again with a CE boost).
Secondly (and separately), it is quite common for the Tribe to preserve their rage by bringing in fresh attackers, which can then attack (often with Typhoon assistance) and make KOs for Witch sploding. Do these two situations happen every game? Maybe not, but I remember them occurring with at least some frequency pre-patch, and I expect them to reappear if enough damage can be done.
I cannot comment on the possibility of statistical flukes, but I will point out that capitalizing on mistakes is part and parcel of the Tribe's strength. A positioning error that might have been relatively minor against any other faction can blow up into a complete game-changer against the Tribe. Sure, against perfect play and a perfect draw the Tribe will struggle to make headway -- but who doesn't? Is theoretical "mistake-free" play the only measure of team balance? If so, once Tribe is balanced by this unrealistic measuring stick, they will be ridiculously overpowered for the vast majority of players, most of whom don't play anything close to mistake-free.
With nerfs to DW and TF2, along with slight readjustment of the previous Tribe changes, I don't think there's any reason to believe that they will be below the power curve.
But again, 'that's how TF2 goes' is my whole point. It being guaranteed that 2/3 of your strong units are doomed from the start is what makes them so powerful, and that's why I think it should be changed. It's much harder to kill a high value unit with a scroll on another team than with a jarate.
What Aratribal is saying here (and on this point I agree with him 100%) is that good play against TF2 often means NOT focusing all of your early mods on 3 units. In other words, it is often advantageous (and very possible) to force jarate to be played on +2 or even +1 units, meaning that you can end up with multiple buffed units once the jarate has been used, which the squishy and now jarate-deprived TF2 team can really struggle to take out. The "buff exactly three units to the max" paradigm is one of the mistakes that TF2 feasts upon, because it enhances the efficiency of jarate needlessly. The fact that so many players play poorly against jarate is not a sign that it should be crippled.
A one-shot pre-jarate still would remain in the arsenal with the sniper, if I'm not mistaken.
It is impossible for TF2 to score a worthwhile jarate + sniper kill unless their opponent parks their precious +3 unit exposed in the line of fire of a safely crouched sniper. This is simply not a reliable means of offense! Those kills are great for TF2 when they happen to arise, but on certain maps and against strong positioning they are just too inconsistent (not to mention finite, due to the consumable involved).
A weakened jarate would make the team overly dependant on Snipers and Engineers, as ara says, and after reviewing the numbers I count myself in the camp that is firmly opposed to it.
Why axe thrower nerf? Because the 66% CE buff will throw TR into overpowered mode unless he is nerfed?
In a word, yes. =)
Reports of the Tribe's death have been greatly exaggerated. Even with their much-publicized unpopularity and inability to deal consistent AOE damage, they are doing fine (both statistically and anecdotally) against everyone except TF2. So what would happen to balance, assuming they regain some of their old corpse-explosion swagger? With even the modest 66% CE buff, an enraged, sworded witch will once again be able to deal 800+ damage on a meated corpse explosion. Anyone who doesn't recognize the importance of that benchmark wasn't around for pre-patch Tribe splosions. Allowing typhoons to move friendly KOed heroes is just as significant, since Tribe corpses are currently one of the few ways to keep valuable units from getting swept into danger. If those two proposed buffs are meaningful (and I think it's obvious that they are), there MUST be nerfs applied elsewhere to keep the Tribe from becoming too strong. Frankly, if friendly corpses become mobile, I'm of the opinion that ANOTHER minor nerf ought to be considered, such as reducing axe-thrower health.
I think the previous changes to Tribe (nerfed corpse explosion and buffed axe-thrower) were the right ones -- they just went too far. Backing each change off a bit just makes sense.
Except you forget one thing: an enraged runed witch will never have a corpse to explode. If witch is enraged, this means the corpse has already been stomped O_O
A runed witch on a sword tile, you say? If it manages to wave-pull, hit, hit, meat, corpse explode, KO'ing 1-2 800 hp units, well, that's a lot of items to KO (not KS) some vanilla stuff. And whoever exposes his vanilla stuff to the front lines deserves to lose regardless ;)