So... about the council....
In other words: just because the win/loss ratio is on a par with the other teams doesn't mean that a given team is well-designed or balanced, and this is my opinion regarding the council.
That's true, but there are plenty of other ways that an imbalance of the kind you are hypothesizing would be evident, with average match length of wins vs. losses being the most obvious. And again, I see no evidence of such problems in those numbers either. Where is the imbalance hiding? Eventually, if it gets hard enough to find evidence of a hypothesis in the data, one must address the possibility that the hypothesis itself is flawed.
That's kind of the problem, really. For instance, whether the win actually *happens* in the early game (early crystal rush) or happens in the late game DUE to an early imbalance that takes longer to play out (early rush forcing bad trades or consumable use to prevent a crystal rush), it could still be due to an inherently unbalanced playing field that doesn't have an obvious numerical basis.
In all seriousness, Trip, when (if?) you play council, do you not feel forced to play MORE aggressively than with other teams or risk an unavoidable loss? Do games in which you don't get both an archer and a cleric in your first few turns feel like foregone conclusions? Sure, I have often found myself able to scrape out a win against obvious noobs despite bad early council hands and/or team advantages, but these are the exceptions that prove the rule, in my experience.
That's kind of the problem, really. For instance, whether the win actually *happens* in the early game (early crystal rush) or happens in the late game DUE to an early imbalance that takes longer to play out (early rush forcing bad trades or consumable use to prevent a crystal rush), it could still be due to an inherently unbalanced playing field that doesn't have an obvious numerical basis.
Regardless of whether it ends the game immediately or leads to an ending down the road in any individual game, early CL dominance and late CL weakness should result in significantly shorter wins and longer losses, on average. I don't see any way this could be argued.
In all seriousness, Trip, when (if?) you play council, do you not feel forced to play MORE aggressively than with other teams or risk an unavoidable loss? Do games in which you don't get both an archer and a cleric in your first few turns feel like foregone conclusions? Sure, I have often found myself able to scrape out a win against obvious noobs despite bad early council hands and/or team advantages, but these are the exceptions that prove the rule, in my experience.
You keep asking me questions like this, as if you think I'm secretly just playing Devil's Advocate because I like arguing (which, admittedly, I am known to do...). But I'm not in this case! =D
In all seriousness, I think you are still doing something wrong in your Council play. Although i currently am not playing much of anything (I only have my 3 TF2 tournament games in my queue at the moment), I have over 250 Council wins to my name, and I definitely don't see the kind of negative imbalance you describe. Sure, there are good CL draws and bad ones, but I think they are more than capable of getting by with wizards and/or a ninja during the early rounds if necessary, and I find their late game comparable to the other mid-tier teams, assuming good play and smart exchanges. In particular, I've never noticed them to be as vulnerable to AOE as you describe. They aren't as good at dealing with it as DW and TR, but they are much better-equipped to handle it than SL and about the same as DE and TF2, assuming good positioning.
Regardless of whether it ends the game immediately or leads to an ending down the road in any individual game, early CL dominance and late CL weakness should result in significantly shorter wins and longer losses, on average. I don't see any way this could be argued.
I assume that the statistics aren't reflecting this? Since I haven't dug into that file or joined the league. In any case, it's also possible that an early advantage might be partially offset by a later disadvantage? Just thinking out loud here.
You keep asking me questions like this, as if you think I'm secretly just playing Devil's Advocate because I like arguing (which, admittedly, I am known to do...). But I'm not in this case! =D
In all seriousness, I think you are still doing something wrong in your Council play. Although i currently am not playing much of anything (I only have my 3 TF2 tournament games in my queue at the moment), I have over 250 Council wins to my name, and I definitely don't see the kind of negative imbalance you describe. Sure, there are good CL draws and bad ones, but I think they are more than capable of getting by with wizards and/or a ninja during the early rounds if necessary, and I find their late game comparable to the other mid-tier teams, assuming good play and smart exchanges. In particular, I've never noticed them to be as vulnerable to AOE as you describe. They aren't as good at dealing with it as DW and TR, but they are much better-equipped to handle it than SL and about the same as DE and TF2, assuming good positioning.
I have 230 council wins right now, with my queue almost full most of the time. While I wouldn't claim to be the authority on any team (though confident with all but SL, who I haven't yet bought due to concerns with their early balance) I am pretty confident with all of the teams, draw and matchup notwithstanding. I would be happy to learn what I'm doing wrong, apparently, but at the same time I have pretty significant objections to some of the counterarguments you make here:
Shaolin are obviously in a terrible place against AOE because the Taoist is just terrible; that's just one of my ongoing complaints about the Shaolin, and that makes them an outlier in this context. Their offense (poisoner in particular) is overtuned in my opinion, but that's an entirely separate issue.
The TF2 suffer to AOE because of the wide variety of units required to take advantage of their respective gimmicks. Even so, the medic (with engineer upgrade) does 86% of the cleric's outbound healing while healing himself and having magic resistance to help him survive to be ABLE to heal. He even heals for 81% of the cleric's revive + heal from KO'd! Except in very particular circumstances his healing generally equates to the same number of offensive AP required for the opponent to negate as the cleric. Without even considering his ability to link up to increase another unit's power, the medic is about 85% as good as the cleric at the only thing she does, while healing himself and taking less splash damage from magic sources. This means that instead of having to have a second medic nearby just for incidental AOE (like the council must, or else risk losing clerics to AOE attrition) the TF2 can heal up in less AP and focus on what they do best.
The dark elves' healer heals from 50% further away, AKA less exposure to AOE while being able to heal. It's ridiculously easy to form a mesh of priestess healing ranges such that they can revive each other and their front lines without being particularly vulnerable to splash damage. On top of this, dark elf attackers heal themselves. Given the choice between reliance on a squishy healer with good throughput and the ability to keep the pressure up on my opponent WHILE healing? It's a no-brainer.
In the offensive arena, the council's reliance on archers is pretty self-evident. Wizards are terrible when compared to grenadiers, gunners, void monks, pretty much any AOE-capable offensive unit except for the similarly mediocre Windblade and the overnerfed witch doc. Knights are widely (and correctly) regarded as being terrible offensive units for obvious reasons. That leaves the archer and ninja as the workhorses of the council, AND you MUST have a cleric or else your units drop like flies.
In other words, I just can't see any argument that Clerics are, on balance, better than (or even as good as) other healers except specifically in single-target throughput, and even then only by one effective AP which is usually (and easily) offset by the other healers' perks, or that the council's non-Archer offensive options aren't distinctly subpar. Subpar offense + average defense and staying power = mediocrity, in my opinion and experience.
Do you have any particular suggestions on how to deal with the team's reliance on the cleric and the cleric's personal squishiness? My experience has been that a hyper-aggressive attack is the only reliable way to gain any meaningful longterm momentum against an opponent of non-begginer aptitude, and that kind of game isn't fun for me regardless of which side I'm on. If I'm missing something about the council I'd love to hear it, but my only consistent losses against council are to early crystal rushes and/or early unit attacks when my early hand doesn't provide me with the tools to defend or respond... If there's some high-level tactics that keep the Council competitive at high-end play, I just haven't heard of them.
@Jwallyr
+1
I can't offer specifics on your play, Jwallyr, without seeing sequential screenshots of some on your games, but I do know from your own admission that up until recently you were regularly putting full sets of defensive gear on your knights, a practice that hasn't been a consistently strong play ever since the Knight nerf almost a full year ago. Since that habit was corrected, you said that your council play had improved. Are you really THAT confident that there are no other similar quirks still in your play holding you back? Just from your comments, my hunch is that you are underutilizing your Wizards and/or Infernoes, but again, I'd need to see multiple games of yours to say more.
Clerics rez for 400, making rezzed units take at least 2 APs to KO again in the vast majority of situations. They can bring a KOed unit to 1000 in 2 AP, often fully healing them -- a feat that no other healer can touch. With good positioning, these two qualities allow CL large AP savings in the most common damage scenarios. You are underestimating the problems that TF2 can face on the healing front, especially in regards to Heavies (2 APs from an upgraded Medic gets a KOed unit to 650, iirc), AND you completely ignore the intrinsic handicap of having only 2 healers, while also assuming that every Medic will have the opportunity to be upgraded early. The Priestess' range is fantastic, but she's horribly inefficient on an AP basis. Life leach is wonderful, but assumes that a) there is only 1 heavily damaged unit, b) the damaged unit is an effective attacker, and c) the damaged attacker has a suitable target in range. These requirements can be exploited.
Note that I am NOT saying that CL couldn't use a tweak, nor am I saying that they don't benefit from aggression -- they are an aggressive team by nature. I am, however, arguing that there is no basis for your claim that they are somehow doubly-imbalanced (OP early game with good draws, but crippled late game) to the extent that they (or the crystals) need major revisions.
Regardless of whether it ends the game immediately or leads to an ending down the road in any individual game, early CL dominance and late CL weakness should result in significantly shorter wins and longer losses, on average. I don't see any way this could be argued.
I assume that the statistics aren't reflecting this? Since I haven't dug into that file or joined the league. In any case, it's also possible that an early advantage might be partially offset by a later disadvantage? Just thinking out loud here.
As I posted earlier:
Average final round for CL wins as home team: 45
Average final round for CL losses as away team: 46
If the CL does have an early advantage that is partially offset by a later disadvantage, but neither is significant enough to result in more than a 1 turn difference in game length between wins and losses, I find it hard to conclude that either imbalance is big enough to warrant major concern.
I can't offer specifics on your play, Jwallyr, without seeing sequential screenshots of some on your games, but I do know from your own admission that up until recently you were regularly putting full sets of defensive gear on your knights, a practice that hasn't been a consistently strong play ever since the Knight nerf almost a full year ago. Since that habit was corrected, you said that your council play had improved. Are you really THAT confident that there are no other similar quirks still in your play holding you back? Just from your comments, my hunch is that you are underutilizing your Wizards and/or Infernoes, but again, I'd need to see multiple games of yours to say more.
1) I stopped giving knights defensive gear a few months ago. My use of the word "recently" in the thread I know you're referencing was, perhaps, overly broad; mea culpa for the misunderstanding.
2) The only reason I was doing that in the first place is because, unlike most other teams, even upgraded units have terrible survivability on the front lines unless they're hiding behind a knight. Dark elf units, although vulnerable to physical damage, can recover by long-range revives and life leech; dwarf have the option of shields + pally aura + pallies being able to survive close to the front lines; Tribe has chain revives + meat to initiate a retaliatory strike. Shaolin heals suck, but they are also the kings of defensive combos; TF2 is an entirely different can of worms for lots of reasons.
With respect to wizards and infernos- I use wizards consistently, particularly against Council, Dark Elves, or Shaolin (the teams with the poorest tools against AOE). This doesn't make them a good tool, but they are the ONLY tool the council have to do AOE damage. Between his low range, weak splash, and reliance on the frail cleric, it's better than not attacking at all, but usually a last resort when there are no archers available.
I admit to not using Infernos aggressively for damage, but with the Council lacking any other ranged stomp, I often feel that I can't afford to use the Infernos except as part of a scrolled archer + inferno combo to take out a threatening Void Monk or Grenadier with equipment. And again, the only teams that suffer exceptionally against the Inferno are the Council and Shaolin anyway! Dark Elves can spread out and use fewer, individually more-effective/survivable units, while Paladins and Shamans do splash heals. TF2, again, is a can of worms that I try not to open in these comparative balance discussions, but I will grant that a well-placed Inferno or two can put a big spoke in their wheel. That said, it's usually either use 'em both or there's no point, and then you have no ranged stomp or burst AOE later! It's hard for me to feel good about either option.
Clerics rez for 400, making rezzed units take at least 2 APs to KO again in the vast majority of situations. They can bring a KOed unit to 1000 in 2 AP, often fully healing them -- a feat that no other healer can touch. With good positioning, these two qualities allow CL large AP savings in the most common damage scenarios. You are underestimating the problems that TF2 can face on the healing front, especially in regards to Heavies (2 APs from an upgraded Medic gets a KOed unit to 650, iirc), AND you completely ignore the intrinsic handicap of having only 2 healers, while also assuming that every Medic will have the opportunity to be upgraded early. The Priestess' range is fantastic, but she's horribly inefficient on an AP basis. Life leach is wonderful, but assumes that a) there is only 1 heavily damaged unit, b) the damaged unit is an effective attacker, and c) the damaged attacker has a suitable target in range. These requirements can be exploited.
First, I mistakenly calculated the revive + heal combo assuming the 650 of an upgraded medic vs 800 (not sure where I got that number from, but it was late yesterday after a long day :p ), so I want to point that out.
That said, the 1000 HP of a 2 AP cleric heal is not *that* much better than the 3 AP heal from every other healer (900HP vs 1000). In most circumstances, things that will kill the 900 HP unit will kill the 1000HP unit (how many units have more than 900HP without also having resistances that make the difference between a 3 hit KO from a 300 power unit and the 4 it would take to KO the 1000 anyway?), so I'm going to estimate something like a 1.5 average AP advantage to the cleric due to raw throughput. Significant, but when taken into account the AP that has to be spent getting 50% closer than a priestess must, or healing the first cleric with a second cleric while the paladin heals herself, etc. it's not really that big a deal in the long run, in my opinion.
Heavies on the TF2 team are hard to heal, sure. The engineer upgrade (if present) still goes a long way to make up the difference in throughput, and the medic has lots of other fringe benefits as noted before. The TF2 are weird, and have lots of offensive gimmicks to help make up for having only 2 medics.
With respect to Dark Elves: A) See my above commentary on DE's reduced reliance on clumped units due to individual resilience and the priestess's long range. B & C) Void monks leech life through AOE, AKA easy to pressure/harass while healing themselves; Impalers do 300 base damage, so they heal themselves decently even without a sword; Necros attack from long range so they can do chip damage and heal themselves somewhat without having to be too close to the enemy, although supplemental healing from a Priestess will probably be necessary to top off. It's not very hard to make up the AP loss from the Priestess's heals by offensive pressure + life leech, but particularly if the unit in question has any equipment at all.
Note that I am NOT saying that CL couldn't use a tweak, nor am I saying that they don't benefit from aggression -- they are an aggressive team by nature. I am, however, arguing that there is no basis for your claim that they are somehow doubly-imbalanced (OP early game with good draws and crippled late game) to the extent that they (or the crystals) need major revisions.
It's entirely possible that I have missed some critical aspect of council play that makes the difference between the mediocrity that has been my experience, and the competitiveness that you assert that they posess. I just have a hard time believing that, due to my experience. I have NEVER been handed a ridiculous rush zerg loss by any other team, nor have I had any other team hit my early units so hard that I *cannot* recover (not counting the rare, ridiculously useless "3 engineers, 2 beer and a shield" kind of opening hands). Likewise, I have never felt so completely outgunned when playing any other team (haven't bought Shaolin, for the record) in the late game, after having been forced to blow consumables early to stay in the game at all.
Whether you would say that this is because the Council are numerically "weaker" or just harder to play effectively (assuming the existance of some playing-field-leveling tactic of which I'm not aware), I think it's a reasonable concern, particularly for the team that introduces new players to the game. I know that if my first several games had been against the dwarves, I would have quit in disgust, and the original incarnation of the Tribe (with the field-leveling meat+rage+witch doc bomb) made the Council look pathetic. The Dark Elves are a more nuanced team, I will grant that, but with significant "quality of life" advantages that make them a lot more playable in practice than their numbers on paper would suggest, which means at the very least that there was a lot of learning that had to happen before I felt comfortable facing them as Council.
Essentially, the council lacks the relative gimmicks of the other teams and instead has only marginal throughput gains (and most of those in healing) in their place. Unless I'm missing some huge synergy that is so obvious to everyone else that nobody ever talks about it, I can only come to the conclusion that the council is, unit-for-unit, mildly disadvantaged, but that high archer damage + range gives them some early oomph. I'd really love to hear what, if anything, I'm actually missing here.
As I posted earlier:
Average final round for CL wins as home team: 45
Average final round for CL losses as away team: 46
If the CL does have an early advantage that is partially offset by a later disadvantage, but neither is significant enough to result in more than a 1 turn difference in game length between wins and losses, I find it hard to conclude that either imbalance is big enough to warrant major concern.
I think you must have misunderstood what I meant about early wins and late game losses. What I mean is that, compared to the other teams, council wins happen (or have their roots) earlier in the game. For example, I would find it hard to believe that even the most aggressive of dwarf players would be able to match the speed of a council crystal rush; this might be borne out by a longer average win time for the dwarves. On the other end of the scale, the dwarves have tremendous staying power in the late game, due to their massive, non-consumable dependent AOE potential and strong defense (paladin self-heals and aura, engineer shields backing your +3 grenadiers and gunners). When the council might be losing steam (and therefore losing), the dwarves are just getting started!
I would love to see if the statistics bear out what I'm describing. I wouldn't be surprised if the average dwarf game is longer than the average council game, win or lose.
The Tribe is all about a quick-and-dirty trade of units and consumables, so they might be more on a par with the council timetable while still relying on (and benefitting from) a little bit of setup and maneuvering time (placing shamans and chieftans, equipping said chieftains, etc.).
I hope this makes my argument a little more clear.
1) I stopped giving knights defensive gear a few months ago. My use of the word "recently" in the thread I know you're referencing was, perhaps, overly broad; mea culpa for the misunderstanding.
On January 7, 2013, you said that your primary Council tactics involved "Knight + shield + helm with archer/wizard + sword behind to pop out and attack." I consider that to be fairly recent, and it suggests that you've been playing with better Council equipment distributions for less than 6 weeks.
That said, the 1000 HP of a 2 AP cleric heal is not *that* much better than the 3 AP heal from every other healer (900HP vs 1000). In most circumstances, things that will kill the 900 HP unit will kill the 1000HP unit (how many units have more than 900HP without also having resistances that make the difference between a 3 hit KO from a 300 power unit and the 4 it would take to KO the 1000 anyway?), so I'm going to estimate something like a 1.5 average AP advantage to the cleric due to raw throughput. Significant, but when taken into account the AP that has to be spent getting 50% closer than a priestess must, or healing the first cleric with a second cleric while the paladin heals herself, etc. it's not really that big a deal in the long run, in my opinion.
This is where we differ, then -- I consider a 1 or 2 AP gain per healing or rezzing a HUGE deal, regardless of range.
Heavies on the TF2 team are hard to heal, sure. The engineer upgrade (if present) still goes a long way to make up the difference in throughput, and the medic has lots of other fringe benefits as noted before. The TF2 are weird, and have lots of offensive gimmicks to help make up for having only 2 medics.With respect to Dark Elves: A) See my above commentary on DE's reduced reliance on clumped units due to individual resilience and the priestess's long range. B & C) Void monks leech life through AOE, AKA easy to pressure/harass while healing themselves; Impalers do 300 base damage, so they heal themselves decently even without a sword; Necros attack from long range so they can do chip damage and heal themselves somewhat without having to be too close to the enemy, although supplemental healing from a Priestess will probably be necessary to top off. It's not very hard to make up the AP loss from the Priestess's heals by offensive pressure + life leech, but particularly if the unit in question has any equipment at all.
Agreed -- these are all great tricks. And they are necessary to keep those respective teams from being horribly underpowered.
It's entirely possible that I have missed some critical aspect of council play that makes the difference between the mediocrity that has been my experience, and the competitiveness that you assert that they posess. I just have a hard time believing that, due to my experience. I have NEVER been handed a ridiculous rush zerg loss by any other team, nor have I had any other team hit my early units so hard that I *cannot* recover (not counting the rare, ridiculously useless "3 engineers, 2 beer and a shield" kind of opening hands). Likewise, I have never felt so completely outgunned when playing any other team (haven't bought Shaolin, for the record) in the late game, after having been forced to blow consumables early to stay in the game at all.
Yes, I cannot explain that easily either, without seeing your games. I've experienced brutal rushes from TF2, Tribe and Dwarves that were on par with the best I've seen from the Council, and I never feel that CL is "forced to blow consumables early", other than in the case of exceptionally bad draws. Question: do you and most of your opponents play with 3 AP first turns?
Whether you would say that this is because the Council are numerically "weaker" or just harder to play effectively (assuming the existance of some playing-field-leveling tactic of which I'm not aware), I think it's a reasonable concern, particularly for the team that introduces new players to the game. I know that if my first several games had been against the dwarves, I would have quit in disgust, and the original incarnation of the Tribe (with the field-leveling meat+rage+witch doc bomb) made the Council look pathetic. The Dark Elves are a more nuanced team, I will grant that, but with significant "quality of life" advantages that make them a lot more playable in practice than their numbers on paper would suggest, which means at the very least that there was a lot of learning that had to happen before I felt comfortable facing them as Council.
Essentially, the council lacks the relative gimmicks of the other teams and instead has only marginal throughput gains (and most of those in healing) in their place. Unless I'm missing some huge synergy that is so obvious to everyone else that nobody ever talks about it, I can only come to the conclusion that the council is, unit-for-unit, mildly disadvantaged, but that high archer damage + range gives them some early oomph. I'd really love to hear what, if anything, I'm actually missing here.
Council is a classic "easy to learn, difficult to master" team, which is what makes them so ideal for beginners. The natural roles of the units are intuitive (except for the "swords should be carried by the Knight!" assumption...), and it is the ABSENCE of gimmicks that makes this possible. Gimmicks don't necessarily make a team better -- they just make it more gimmicky.
Again, you are consistently falling back on simple listings of other teams strengths -- none of which I will argue -- which says NOTHING about that team's net effectiveness compared to the poor, gimmick-free Council, who seem to do pretty much as well as everybody else despite not having fancy hats or flashy combo orbs.
I think you must have misunderstood what I meant about early wins and late game losses. What I mean is that, compared to the other teams, council wins happen (or have their roots) earlier in the game. For example, I would find it hard to believe that even the most aggressive of dwarf players would be able to match the speed of a council crystal rush; this might be borne out by a longer average win time for the dwarves. On the other end of the scale, the dwarves have tremendous staying power in the late game, due to their massive, non-consumable dependent AOE potential and strong defense (paladin self-heals and aura, engineer shields backing your +3 grenadiers and gunners). When the council might be losing steam (and therefore losing), the dwarves are just getting started!
I would love to see if the statistics bear out what I'm describing. I wouldn't be surprised if the average dwarf game is longer than the average council game, win or lose.
The Tribe is all about a quick-and-dirty trade of units and consumables, so they might be more on a par with the council timetable while still relying on (and benefitting from) a little bit of setup and maneuvering time (placing shamans and chieftans, equipping said chieftains, etc.).
I hope this makes my argument a little more clear.
It is clear, but it seems like flawed statistics. The average length of games for Dark Elves vs. Dwarves should have no bearing on whether or not Council has an internal early-game vs. late-game imbalance. You might be able to pluck out meaningful statistics for comparison from the other teams, but I don't think it would be more meaningful than simply comparing CL wins vs. losses. Again, if CL is significantly overpowered (on average) in the early game, and significantly underpowered (on average) in the late game, their wins should generally be significantly shorter than their losses. Can you explain for me why you don't think this is a valid statement?
I think you must have misunderstood what I meant about early wins and late game losses. What I mean is that, compared to the other teams, council wins happen (or have their roots) earlier in the game.
Ok, just because I'm a sucker for data mining, I went back and got average length of League wins when going first with 3 AP, starting with HA version 1.3. The results are as follows:
CL: 44.9
DE: 49.3
DW: 43.7
TR: 44.1
TF2: 50.4
SL: 56.1
Conclusions?
Conclusion: Jallywr and Trip need to play some games. :)
While we're proposing. for more jallywr data points. Jallywr vs flameshocks CL and might I suggest vs reallgt's CL as well. two of the best CL players I've ever had the pleasure of being stomped on. Who needs league matchmaking to find challenging games when you have the forum.
Ohh my. I see now what you did here jdawg.
The stats are available as an excel file to members, it doesn't cost anything to sign up, so maybe you could do that. :)
I've tried to slice the stats before, but I guess I'm just no good at it. You have a go!
I also am having trouble with downloading the excel file:
From the Stats page: Council is 50% overall, at the moment. Council is even in head-to-heads with dwarves, and losing in head-to-heads only with TF2.
Also, tribe is kicking butt and therefore should be nerfed. I think Witch splash should heal opposing units.
On 2nd thought, maybe it is a little early.
Conclusion: Jallywr and Trip need to play some games. :)
What?!? And what would I have to read myself to sleep each night if they're busy actually playing against each other instead of typing against each other? Who would fill the void?
What?!? And what would I have to read myself to sleep each night if they're busy actually playing against each other instead of typing against each other? Who would fill the void?
Suggestion: They play each other and post screenshots of each move on in a thread on this forum with commentary (or to tabby_nat's blog since we can't embed just link images here) They get to play, we get to watch and read both their back and forth actions AND words.
Suggestion: They play each other and post screenshots of each move on in a thread on this forum with commentary (or to tabby_nat's blog since we can't embed just link images here) They get to play, we get to watch and read both their back and forth actions AND words.
There's that old chestnut about the exchange rate between pictures and words, implying screenshots would have 1000:1 value over the quanta of their discussion points. I.e., their ramblings net worth would suffer from deflationary pressure.
But if you were to reverse that exchange while taking into account the sheer quantity (let alone gilded quality) of their combined posts already... why, even at the same imbalanced ratio, we should be able to buy at least the images of one hundred round game, or a two-fer of 50-rounders!
All I'm saying is those guys love to type. Or one (maybe both) of them are operating a sweatshop of very talented monkeys that do.
Either way, maybe I don't want a tour of the sausage factory when I just love me some of their meaty goodnes with my morning coffee.
Pot? Stirred.
All I'm saying is those guys love to type.
So, Writch -- would you like to be the pot, or the kettle? =D
The problem with the "let them play it out!" idea is that one game wouldn't be nearly enough to establish much of anything, especially since Jwallyr has a somewhat vague and difficult to quantify view of the team in question. He isn't saying that CL is weak -- he's saying that they are too strong initially with some draws, and too weak if they can't win early. We'd have to play dozens of games, with all kinds of matchups, to get a real sense of the accuracy of his statement. I simply don't have time for that kind of thing. Fortunately, we DO have a resource where dozens upon dozens of results are aggregated and analyzed. Any guesses what that resource is?
All I'm saying is those guys love to type.
So, Writch -- would you like to be the pot, or the kettle? =D
I'm a little tea pot,
Short and stout.
Writch is my handle,
Here's where I spout.
When I get them steamed up,
Here they'll pout -
Just Trip and Jwallyr.
Then poor me? Out!
EDIT: Snark removed. Out indeed!
Double double...
Or one (maybe both) of them are operating a sweatshop of very talented monkeys that do.
Don't try to copy my business method, I'll sue!!!
Or one (maybe both) of them are operating a sweatshop of very talented monkeys that do.
Don't try to copy my business method, I'll sue!!!
This one?
Hell, I'd like to see a Trip game myself. =) At the same time, I don't want to be the one on the business end of things... >.> What I really want to see is a Trip DE against any DW!
Trip, you'll have more free time in the summer, right? =D
What I really want to see is a Trip DE against any DW!
Heck to the YES! Show us how it's done, Trip.
Thirded!
Edit: forgot to quote *facepalm*
Heck to the YES! Show us how it's done, Trip.
Well, I've already got a date with Hiruma scheduled for June... I was planning on making it a mirror match, but if Dwarves get a more significant nerf before then I would consider taking DE into the fray. ;)
Beyond that, I'd just like to encourage anyone in the League to throw some good challenges out there! If you win, you move up, and if you lose, you have the opportunity to learn something -- can't go wrong.
Now, clearly there is some disagreement on these premises, but I was reading the "Wraith 2.0" thread, within which some highly-respected members of this community referred to the council as "beleagured" and in need of help. What I want to know is this- how many people think the Council is in need of SOME help?
No need to beat around the bush -- I started that thread, and I used that term. Council was the undisputed top dog in the academy for most of the first year after release. When I say "beleaguered" I'm referring partly to the fact that they have clearly fallen in relative strength since then, and partly to the fact that so many (like yourself) have such negative opinions of the team. In the thread in question I clearly state why I think CL will feel the brunt of the new Wraith's strength, and also acknowledge that I initially underestimated the magnitude of this change. I don't think Council is suddenly unplayable, and I certainly wouldn't recommend any major changes for the team (or crystals, for that matter) and my critiques of your initial analyses stand.
3. Because of 1 and 2, the council's stats LOOK balanced against the other teams when you look at averages, but the reality is that council vs non-council games (where the participants are of roughly equal skill, etc.) are either short, brutal, lopsided wins for the council or long, soul-crushing losses for the council.
I appreciate that you at least mention the League statistics that undermine your arguments, but you'll have to fill me in on the rest of the details: why would your stated outcomes (short, brutal wins or long, soul-crushing losses) not appear in the stats? Do you think that League members are not of roughly equal skill? Do you have some numbers that the rest of us have not seen?
Trip all you care about is stats. Honestly if your going to let some one tell you your opinion then your wrong. You have to find it on your own. If the stats said jump off a cliff you would do it. Screw the stats, the stats just tell us wins not what happens in the game... Lol i hope (i never look at stats so i dont know what going on.
Trip when you get back i want to play you again. Just to see where i am at i think i have improved a lot. I also was wondering how long do you think was our first game.







In other words: just because the win/loss ratio is on a par with the other teams doesn't mean that a given team is well-designed or balanced, and this is my opinion regarding the council.
That's true, but there are plenty of other ways that an imbalance of the kind you are hypothesizing would be evident, with average match length of wins vs. losses being the most obvious. And again, I see no evidence of such problems in those numbers either. Where is the imbalance hiding? Eventually, if it gets hard enough to find evidence of a hypothesis in the data, one must address the possibility that the hypothesis itself is flawed.