Shaolin v Shaolin: (Sometimes) Mutu ...
On many maps and with many equipment distributions, Shaolin v Shaolin can be reasonably fun and tactical.
However, with the Windblade's AOE being so weak, and on the wide open maps, and especially the one where the center is guarded by a sword tile, you can easily find yourself both having 10 units out and healers in the back to cover em.
I am in such a situation now, against a former trainee. I am like 9-0 against him, and have given up trying to train him -- he is what he is I think (doesnt read this forum). Anyway, my dragons and runemetal are buried, and despite the skill gap, I have absolutely no plan whatsoever given the solidity of his current formation. I have tried to come up with a plan, but I cant. "Take more stuff out if you can find space, or trade stuff, get Dragon/runemetal and see if you can figure something out" is the only plan I can see. Or wait for him to blunder. These are not fun "plans".
Windblade AOE must be buffed in my opinion. 100/66/66 plus monk movement might do the job, or take windblade to 250 and go 100/50/50.
I have to say, is the movement of the mon really to low for many people, or do we all see just maybe the void monk in him? I dont know, but I always feel like he should be run 3 instead of 2. I also feel more like he should attack the unit in front of him and the one behind him because of his animation.
His skill to reduce the HP is helpful, if you play against other teams, but often worthless against the shaolin, but I guess thats how it is.
In reply to the original post, I get stuck in situations like that, before I remember the crystal kill. A tiny, horribly drawn out crystal kill. That forces them to break formation or (slowly and very painfully) lose the game. This has worked against a few shaolin turtle matches so far.
In reply to the original post, I get stuck in situations like that, before I remember the crystal kill. A tiny, horribly drawn out crystal kill. That forces them to break formation or (slowly and very painfully) lose the game. This has worked against a few shaolin turtle matches so far.
Well, if they are able to block the crystal, the Windblade doesnt do enough to even be noticeable to the crystal. Especially on the map where neither side can permanently occupy a boost tile.
Perhaps, but would that solve the involutary turtling situation? If your opponent has the same offensive capabilities, wouldn't you be in the same position right now?
I mean, you send in a unit to attack, but then he has the same damage potential, so you have to defend at the same time while attack or you leave a gap in your formation.
That just leads to another standoff, albeit one with better damage dealing Windblades.
Um, no. Look at the Dwarves. Dwarf v Dwarf is never a turtle match because of the powerful AOE. Shaolin has probably the weakest AOE of any team, which is why Shaolin v. Shaolin can become a turtle fest.
Um, no. Look at the Dwarves. Dwarf v Dwarf is never a turtle match because of the powerful AOE. Shaolin has probably the weakest AOE of any team, which is why Shaolin v. Shaolin can become a turtle fest.
That's hardly a fair comparison. Dwarven Grenadiers can affect NINE targets at once! To to mention, they have scrolls! I believe it has already been established that in Scrolls vs ComboPotions, Scrolls come out ahead in terms of damage.
Not only are Shaolin Windblades restricted to only THREE targets, they have trouble choosing WHICH target to hit as well!
Though, your good ideas are probably a step in the right direction. I'm just saying, I wouldn't count on them to resolve the turtling issue, that's all.
In reply to the original post, I get stuck in situations like that, before I remember the crystal kill. A tiny, horribly drawn out crystal kill. That forces them to break formation or (slowly and very painfully) lose the game. This has worked against a few shaolin turtle matches so far.
Well, if they are able to block the crystal, the Windblade doesnt do enough to even be noticeable to the crystal. Especially on the map where neither side can permanently occupy a boost tile.
really? I just made 4500dmg on a crystal in one move. (okay one combo potion was used), well okay that doestn mean that they are strong in aoe. I agree, its not really the strongest.
I dont know why, but I think i am really worse with the shaolin, I dont know how to position good 3 unit .. like monk, poisoner and windblade. I often give the monk in front of the poisoner and then aside of the poisioner the windblade, but it seem still a bad position
Um, no. Look at the Dwarves. Dwarf v Dwarf is never a turtle match because of the powerful AOE. Shaolin has probably the weakest AOE of any team, which is why Shaolin v. Shaolin can become a turtle fest.
That's hardly a fair comparison. Dwarven Grenadiers can affect NINE targets at once! To to mention, they have scrolls! I believe it has already been established that in Scrolls vs ComboPotions, Scrolls come out ahead in terms of damage.
Not only are Shaolin Windblades restricted to only THREE targets, they have trouble choosing WHICH target to hit as well!
Though, your good ideas are probably a step in the right direction. I'm just saying, I wouldn't count on them to resolve the turtling issue, that's all.
That I agree with. The boost needs to be strong enough to make AOE meaningfull
Still, boost the windblade to 66% and 2 windblades attacking the same chain will do 125+325 to the second and third targets or 450. Relevant at least. If one of them uses a combo potion, you have a reasonable equivalent to a scroll. Still a tad weak given that you need to use two windblades though, whereas a scroll has no such limitation. I'm actually wondering whether boosting damage to 250 AND aoe to 66%/66% would be too much. In the rare situations where you can pre-combo potion and double windblade attack, and the second windblade is upgraded, you might have too much AOE damage. Or not -- that is harder to set up than a scroll, so it should do a bit more damage.
Maybe leave damage as is, but go to 66%/66% and boost the Windblades health or resists to make a double windblade attack less of a suicidal thing.
really? I just made 4500dmg on a crystal in one move. (okay one combo potion was used), well okay that doestn mean that they are strong in aoe. I agree, its not really the strongest.
I dont know why, but I think i am really worse with the shaolin, I dont know how to position good 3 unit .. like monk, poisoner and windblade. I often give the monk in front of the poisoner and then aside of the poisioner the windblade, but it seem still a bad position
Yes, when Shaolin can swarm a crystal they can ravage it. That isnt AOE, and in fact the lack of AOE makes it easy for other teams to body block.
I am way ahead on favorable trades in one game...but no idea how I'm going to win if my Dwarven opponent makes a fortress.
Shaolin needs substantial power boosts as a faction on various fronts, but HA also needs an Offer Draw option! they have that in chess... so why not HA?
Shaolin needs substantial power boosts as a faction on various fronts, but HA also needs an Offer Draw option! they have that in chess... so why not HA?
No. A Draw option for what? There is no draw. Sorry I dont see any reason for it and it would change nothing. If you mention the league, well the league is fanbased and so you also could speak with your opponent, if it makes still sense to play. In normal gameplay, you dont lose anything when you lose.
Ive observed that the taoist is also an issue for shaolin vs shaolin. Shaolin has 2 debuffs, and taoist can remove them. Against other factions, a unit is stuck with the debuffs until the shaolin player pounces on it
.. I have absolutely no plan whatsoever given the solidity of his current formation. ...
I tried to describe this in the other thread where we are discussing a bonus AP for moving a 3rd unit:
The progressive combo attack bonus system rewards defense exponentiallly more than offense.
Since APs are limited, movement is penalised. The system means you should wait for the other guy to come to you. Which, of course, is boring.
I think the system may be salvaged if you reward movement. Hence my suggestion:
Award a single extra AP for moving a 3rd different unit.
Ive observed that the taoist is also an issue for shaolin vs shaolin. Shaolin has 2 debuffs, and taoist can remove them. Against other factions, a unit is stuck with the debuffs until the shaolin player pounces on it
I think that's fair. It simply makes Shaolin vs Shaolin a more unique match. But keep in mind, even in Shaolin v Shaolin, you take out their Taoist first and you can debuff all you want!
That's up to the players to do that. It'd be unfair to tell RE to nerf their Taoist's cleansing ability just so people can debuff Shaolin more easily.
it's going to be really interesting to see how Robot will update Shaolin against other teams, but also how they will update the Shaolin vs Shaolin matchup, which is currently the most boring matchup in the entire game
Currently in this situation with someone. Only way i saw to break it is to drop bambo between us and attack over it.
Another thing about Shaolin v Shaolin that I discovered today. He left his shadow alone in a corner while building up the rest of his forces on the other side of the map. I capitalized and was able to set up a KO plus shadow steal on his shadow. Except.......
It wouldn't let me steal his shadow. I wasn't expecting this since I can steal any other factions unique super unit. Now I've lost my shadow after stomping his along with a powerful attacker.
I submit this as further evidence that there is no way for shaolin vs shaolin to pull off a decisive victory, it's just drawn out attrition which is really not very fun.
You can't shadow res in enemy tiles
Calling for a draw option is not an outrageous or bizarre suggestion. Stalemates are possible in Hero Academy (see this thread: http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Need-draw-option.? ). In chess, draws are not limited to stalemates (or to tournament play, for that matter) e.g. http://www.chessinvasion.com/draw.html
But this is not just about the rare stalemate or repetitive play patterns, it's also about the pleasure of the game between players (this is why this is significant outside of tournament play too). It is fairly common in HA games (in some faction vs faction face-offs more than others - Shaolin vs Shaolin seems to be the worst offender now; especially common when both sides have exhausted their power-up attack items) for the two sides to end up in a stand-off position which, unless one of the players does something deliberately stupid and reckless (and so essentially "suicides"), both sides are in for a lengthy war of attrition. Some players may enjoy this. Others may not and find it tedious and boring instead. Allowing a bored player to offer a draw won't let them "get away with it" if their opponent enjoys the war of lengthy attrition (they should be able to just refuse the draw). But if both sides are bored by the prospect of lengthy attrition, the mutually agreed upon option would be a socially easy, built-in way out for both. And again, this use is on top of the use for stalemate/technical draw situations.
Yeah there's a lot of of turtling in this matchup, similar to TF2 vs TF2 because the offensive units are iffy and healing is meh.
I keep running into Shadow war matches. We just keep reviving each other's units because the Shadow isn't possibe to kill. It's kind of fun, but frustrating and messy too.
I think people forget that this is a mirror a matchup. Mirror matchups are traditionally the most balanced, the most difficult to play and the most strategic, since both opponents are capable of setting up similar formations and the victory route is often not obvious at all. But once you see this route and outplay your opponent, your victory is often the most satisfying of all victories out there.
Having said this, I do not understand why people say monk needs to be faster wind blades aoe needs to be stronger etc. in order for SL vs SL matchup to be so and so. Changes may be needed for balance vs other teams (although I am adamant it is too early to tell), but mirror matchup will never change - it will always remain the most draw dependent and the hardest to play.
I think people forget that this is a mirror a matchup. Mirror matchups are traditionally the most balanced, the most difficult to play and the most strategic, since both opponents are capable of setting up similar formations and the victory route is often not obvious at all. But once you see this route and outplay your opponent, your victory is often the most satisfying of all victories out there.
Having said this, I do not understand why people say monk needs to be faster wind blades aoe needs to be stronger etc. in order for SL vs SL matchup to be so and so. Changes may be needed for balance vs other teams (although I am adamant it is too early to tell), but mirror matchup will never change - it will always remain the most draw dependent and the hardest to play.
Not saying that snap judgments are good, but: (1) it took three months to get to around 500 TF2 League games, and that was with the growing belief that TF2 may be the currently strongest team, or one of them. With almost everyone believing Shaolin is under-powered, it wouldnt surprise me if we have less than 100 completed Shaolin league games in 6 weeks -- i.e. too few for statistically valid data; (2) some of us have started upwards of 20 Shaolin games with randoms, and finished a bunch already -- i..e., if you really dive into it, just as you did with past teams, it doesnt take long to get a pretty good impression of what is what; (3) Robot has lived with the team longer than we have, and probably already has a sense of what should be changed -- for example, Zekers knew that the sniper probably needed to be rejiggered even before TF2's release; and (4) Robot will get lots of performance data from random matches very quickly.
Add it all up, and I think we should be having these discussions as soon as folks feel ready. If our thoughts square with Robot's already formed thoughts and square with the data from randoms, it may not be necessary or desirable to wait too long. If Robot doesnt already have concrete thoughts, and/or the random data doesnt square with what the community is saying, it might take longer.
I think people forget that this is a mirror a matchup. Mirror matchups are traditionally the most balanced, the most difficult to play and the most strategic, since both opponents are capable of setting up similar formations and the victory route is often not obvious at all. But once you see this route and outplay your opponent, your victory is often the most satisfying of all victories out there.
Having said this, I do not understand why people say monk needs to be faster wind blades aoe needs to be stronger etc. in order for SL vs SL matchup to be so and so. Changes may be needed for balance vs other teams (although I am adamant it is too early to tell), but mirror matchup will never change - it will always remain the most draw dependent and the hardest to play.
Not saying that snap judgments are good, but: (1) it took three months to get to around 500 TF2 League games, and that was with the growing belief that TF2 may be the currently strongest team, or one of them. With almost everyone believing Shaolin is under-powered, it wouldnt surprise me if we have less than 100 completed Shaolin league games in 6 weeks -- i.e. too few for statistically valid data; (2) some of us have started upwards of 20 Shaolin games with randoms, and finished a bunch already -- i..e., if you really dive into it, just as you did with past teams, it doesnt take long to get a pretty good impression of what is what; (3) Robot has lived with the team longer than we have, and probably already has a sense of what should be changed -- for example, Zekers knew that the sniper probably needed to be rejiggered even before TF2's release; and (4) Robot will get lots of performance data from random matches very quickly.
Add it all up, and I think we should be having these discussions as soon as folks feel ready. If our thoughts square with Robot's already formed thoughts and square with the data from randoms, it may not be necessary or desirable to wait too long. If Robot doesnt already have concrete thoughts, and/or the random data doesnt square with what the community is saying, it might take longer.
Sniper is a perfect example why no rushed balancing should take place. Lots of upset customers in the first two days - sniper gets a buff in the first 2 weeks - and after 2 months ppl are talking that he should get a nerf. I warned you about this when there was TF2 balance talk, and I'm again warning that this buffing based on initial impressions will bite you in the a@! Later.
these large numbers of games played in the first week mean nothing - and stats based off them are crap. I guarantee that even after 30 games (half of them SL vs SL?) no one here really knows how to play SL, especially vs each different faction.
Sniper is a perfect example why no rushed balancing should take place. Lots of upset customers in the first two days - sniper gets a buff in the first 2 weeks - and after 2 months ppl are talking that he should get a nerf. I warned you about this when there was TF2 balance talk, and I'm again warning that this buffing based on initial impressions will bite you in the a@! Later.
these large numbers of games played in the first week mean nothing - and stats based off them are crap. I guarantee that even after 30 games (half of them SL vs SL?) no one here really knows how to play SL, especially vs each different faction.
I 100% get the its early be patient argument in general. It did take some time to fully get each of the complex teams. However, the sniper reference doesnt make sense as supporting this argument. The sniper change was never about TEAM balance -- rather it was a recognition that there was something seriously wrong with the sniper as an individual unit -- he felt generally totally useless, except in the occassional instances when, if set up, he was occassionally arguably too strong. It was weird, and to most (but not all) of us, didnt feel right. Robot nailed the change -- Sniper feels much better now. Trip has proposed a small iterative change for team balance now -- a reason unrelated to the original change.
To respond to your central predicate and ignore the example I dont find on point, surely you dont believe that its necessary to wait until perfect balance can be achieved, rather than making iterative changes that get you closer? Since Robot tests only internally, I think its fairly obvious that iterative changes are the way to go BECAUSE PERFECT BALANCE WILL RARELY, IF EVER, BE ACHIEVED WITH A SINGLE ROUND OF CHANGES. Put another way, its necessary to wait long enough to have some confidence in the diagnosis and its general severity, but its not necessary to wait long enough to come up with a perfect 100% cure -- which will rarely happen on the first try, no matter how long you wait.
I don't think we should wait but we shouldn't rush either. Discussion is great, and naturally it will take many patches to balance the teams. However, let me break it down to you this way:
Suppose you finished 30 games by now (have you?). Mostly vs randoms. Half likely SL vs SL (a matchup that gives you ZERO insight into balance). Another quarter vs complete n00bs who got an apple gift card for thanksgiving and accidentally purchased the game, you know the kind I'm talking about. No insight into balance there either. So suppose 7 games were vs ok opponents, 2 vs council, 2 vs TF2 (these 2 seem most popular) and 3 vs other factions, one each. Not league games though, casual games.
Now, here comes the question: would ANYONE have a good idea on balancing SL after 1-2 non-league games vs each faction? O_O
Trial and error is another way to go, but it won't work if new changes are implemented too frequently. This ain't Starcraft where it takes 15 minutes on average to finish a game and where 1 week of competitive play gives you a good idea on balance.
I think we should at least get a month of league data before rushing things.
Trial and error is another way to go, but it won't work if new changes are implemented too frequently. This ain't Starcraft where it takes 15 minutes on average to finish a game and where 1 week of competitive play gives you a good idea on balance.
I think we should at least get a month of league data before rushing things.
Shaolin are 2-12 in League play so far. I dont think they are that bad, but they could be about where the Dark Elves were in 1.0 (when they have a 30% win rate).
Trial and error is another way to go, but it won't work if new changes are implemented too frequently. This ain't Starcraft where it takes 15 minutes on average to finish a game and where 1 week of competitive play gives you a good idea on balance.
I think we should at least get a month of league data before rushing things.
Shaolin are 2-12 in League play so far. I dont think they are that bad, but they could be about where the Dark Elves were in 1.0 (when they have a 30% win rate).
Just to clarify, this is a 2 wins to 12 losses, right?
Trial and error is another way to go, but it won't work if new changes are implemented too frequently. This ain't Starcraft where it takes 15 minutes on average to finish a game and where 1 week of competitive play gives you a good idea on balance.
I think we should at least get a month of league data before rushing things.
Shaolin are 2-12 in League play so far. I dont think they are that bad, but they could be about where the Dark Elves were in 1.0 (when they have a 30% win rate).
Just to clarify, this is a 2 wins to 12 losses, right?
yes, usually the first number is wins and the second in losses.
from what little ive seen of them they doesnt feel worse than prepatch dwarves atleast if that is of any comfort ^^
Perhaps, but would that solve the involutary turtling situation? If your opponent has the same offensive capabilities, wouldn't you be in the same position right now?
I mean, you send in a unit to attack, but then he has the same damage potential, so you have to defend at the same time while attack or you leave a gap in your formation.
That just leads to another standoff, albeit one with better damage dealing Windblades.
A self-taught man usually has a poor teacher and a worse student.