Shaolin now 6-45 in League Play - Sp ...
Just let us know you are working on it!
Incidentally, I am losing one game to the Shaolin now and have at least had serious trouble in others, so I still cant understand how they are doing so badly. There might be something to this "most difficult to play" team idea, and perhaps there is a little self-fufilling prophecy here too, with the folks that care about their record having already given up on the team, but of course, neither factor could fully explain 6-45. At most, partial explanations for this slaughter, if we believe them, means that Shaolin may not need the gigantic sized buff suggested by this data and can get by with a more modest one.
I must say, I love you guys, and your track record on balance remains excellent. Five out of six teams were released in reasonable balance, needing only modest tweeks; one clear fail in six is certainly not grounds for criticism. However, I'm very dissappointed by the failure to say anything at all on this issue given that there *is* a clear failure here.
I've completely given up on Shaolin. I was on a 26 game winning streak and then lost 3 in a row playing as Shaolin. Some aspects of the team have amazing potential, but the team as a whole is so severely underpowered so as to be infuriating to play as.
I would like to know that they are considering buffs. I just got my 51st win with them, and even though I am steamrolling through randoms I can see the weakness. I have tested this with my roomate who is also a very strong player and we have both agreed that in the current state vs TF and DW it is almost unwinnable for SL. I have lost maybe 20% of my games against randoms using SL which is much higher then my rate of like 10% with TF :P
I don't think they need to much, a lot of the ideas posted on this board are just what they need. The monk move and heal range I think would be enough to allow them to push forward and be a force. Because once they get setup you are going to be in for a long game.
As a side note, a heavy with cap and armor = the return of 1440!!!
Move 3 monks, for sure. But then I'd rather have the windblades have one extra vector than range 3 healers. I don't really see why they should heal at range 3. If they need a 3rd buff, I'd make the potion delpoy for zero AP. If they still need a buff, have the healer debuff out to a range of 3 so that its ability can actually be used once in a while. And if they still suck... give the windblade 10% magical armor and make the monks attack debuff MULTIPLE targets, not just one target. By that point people would be crying nerf... at least, against the players who know how to run them.
They are just not as easy to play as TF2, nor will they ever will be. Needing combos requires you to really think about the entire board and all your guys and all your opponents moves at every turn -- you dont need to think that hard when all your guns are packed in one guy as aposed to this team where you guns are packed in your ability to counter attack with combos...
:-)
I'd try them in the league again if they got at least 2 buffs and the TF2 and DW got at least 1 nerf. It doesnt help that the two strongest teams overall just also happen to be the shaolins worst matchups (because of AOE damage). So in the league I've stopped playing random, refuse to play on the Shaolin map until it is fixed, and I also am now playing primarily TF2 (can't beat em, join' em) and DE so as to not loose my ranking... thats the best I can muster with an uneven game.
So, here are my ideas for the SL balance patch.
2 buffs (the second one may need some constructive criticism):
1. Increase Windblades aoe to 100/50/50
2. Add new ability for Taoist: Meditation. Cost: 1AP, able to cast on self only. After the spell is cast (some sort of yin-yan or green glow animation), Taoist gains a tmporary shield (a-la bubble) and 50% attack bonus. The buff disappears either after Taoist takes a hit (which shield would absorb 100%) or after he attacks/heals, dealing 300 damage or healing 600 HP for 1 attack only. Meditation then can be recast.
Windblades aoe is a small buff, which may just be all she needs. As for Taoist, his ability will add to team's theme and will make him more resilient to attacks, allowing players to have taoists positioned closer to midfield. He will also be able to heal allies for 600 occasionally. Perhaps, meditation can self-heal Taoist for full HP as well - something to consider.
Meditation over heal range since heal range may be imba combined with shadow range. No increase in move speed for Monk - he is a tank, just like knight and warrior, with some unique abilities. Aannd that's about it.
i beat ArtNJ with Council against Shaolin ;) ... 6 wins Robot? 6 wins? are u ppl still going to say the team is fine and say nothing about Robot or are u going to realize that Robot dropped the ball on this team BIG TIME
i beat ArtNJ with Council against Shaolin ;) ... 6 wins Robot? 6 wins? are u ppl still going to say the team is fine and say nothing about Robot or are u going to realize that Robot dropped the ball on this team BIG TIME
Chris you played well, you probably have a good understanding of the problems, but take some time to make your posts sound less like rants and people will listen better.
The crazy record should hopefully get Robot's attention, but I suspect it tracks their player-wide data as well. I suspect they have some balance changes in mind and are testing them. That is how they roll; they listen, even if they dont always engage in discussions on the forums, and they do make balance changes for new teams. So...the only thing Robot is not doing well at the moment is communicating.
Probably Robot figured that we were getting stirred up prematurely -- remember, Zekers went out and got 30 Shaolin wins very quickly -- and that is why they were silent. But I'd bet they are in gear and working on the issue now, even if they havent confirmed it.
I do think they should talk to us, but as long as they are working on the issue, it will all work out in the end.
i beat ArtNJ with Council against Shaolin ;) ... 6 wins Robot? 6 wins? are u ppl still going to say the team is fine and say nothing about Robot or are u going to realize that Robot dropped the ball on this team BIG TIME
Can you tell us who it was, exactly, that has called Shaolin "fine"?
I should probably stop beating randoms with shaolin then if I want the team buffed :P
I should probably stop beating randoms with shaolin then if I want the team buffed :P
There are over 50,000 people with the team on gamecenter, the small number of "sharks" wont be a problem. Plus, even the Sharks are probably losing more random games than they are used to. I know I have lost to a few randoms, playing other teams. I have also been losing to other randoms, only to have them make mistakes allowing me to pull it off. For example, there was the Tribe guy that got off to a roaring start and decided to use his board dominance to attack the big 9000 health crystal on the tele map, instead of continuing to choak me out.
I would just like to add that I prefer to read Art's thread title as a recommendation that everyone start communicating in beeps and boops. It's no wonder we haven't gotten a reply from RE -- we aren't even speaking their language!
neep beep glooop brzzzt click --- brzzzt brzzzt ... put put put .... pfffffffff ....sshhhhhh... pop
I would just like to add that I prefer to read Art's thread title as a recommendation that everyone start communicating in beeps and boops. It's no wonder we haven't gotten a reply from RE -- we aren't even speaking their language!
Bah, your insulting them. Dont think R2D2 -- think the Dialects/Cybermen from Dr. Who! Exterminate! Exterminate!
Although, come to think of it, SixOkay's icon does look like C3PO :)
Art, I know you said before that the losses seem to be spread out among lots of different players but are you able to see what the greatest number of losses attributed to any individual player is?
I agree that Shaolin needs help but I'm also puzzled by the crazy record. I don't play a huge number of games but I haven't lost with them yet and feel that they really only struggle against dwarves and TF2.
Art, I know you said before that the losses seem to be spread out among lots of different players but are you able to see what the greatest number of losses attributed to any individual player is?
I agree that Shaolin needs help but I'm also puzzled by the crazy record. I don't play a huge number of games but I haven't lost with them yet and feel that they really only struggle against dwarves and TF2.
No. The database dumps into an excel spreadsheet, but its a real pain to sort through it. Someone else might be able to do more with it than I could, if your so inclined. Drvumad used to mine it for various kinds of information, but I really dont know how. I mostly just look at the various categories of information we have set up tracking of at the website level and avoid the spreadsheet.
The spreadhseet is not proprietary or anything like that. I know there is a way I can give folks an export that want it and if there is interest I'll figure it out. (Or ask)
If it's convenient, I wouldn't mind taking a look at the spreadsheet and trying to sort through it. Don't worry about it if it's going to take up a significant chunk of time though. Even if one person accounted for half the Shaolin losses they would still have a pretty poor record.
Hey dragon, the output is available to anyone in the League. Just go to "Stats", "Database Login", and "Export Results". Looking it over, I can tell you that one player does account for 16 of those losses, but nobody else has lost more than 3 times with them.
Hey dragon, the output is available to anyone in the League. Just go to "Stats", "Database Login", and "Export Results". Looking it over, I can tell you that one player does account for 16 of those losses, but nobody else has lost more than 3 times with them.
Good to know...I thought that was admin only, but there isnt really any reason it should be, so I'm glad its open. Better others look at it, large spreadsheets arent my thing :) The 16 losses is definitely a bit skewing, although even excluding those from our consideration (and we probably should) we are 6-29, still terrible. Knew there had to be some biases in there, the Shaolin need help, but they arent the kind of wretched the numbers are showing (not even 6-29 imho).
Hey dragon, the output is available to anyone in the League. Just go to "Stats", "Database Login", and "Export Results". Looking it over, I can tell you that one player does account for 16 of those losses, but nobody else has lost more than 3 times with them.
Good to know...I thought that was admin only, but there isnt really any reason it should be, so I'm glad its open. Better others look at it, large spreadsheets arent my thing :) The 16 losses is definitely a bit skewing, although even excluding those from our consideration (and we probably should) we are 6-29, still terrible. Knew there had to be some biases in there, the Shaolin need help, but they arent the kind of wretched the numbers are showing (not even 6-29 imho).
Does the loser of 16 have any wins? If so, you need to remove those too. Otherwise you are skewing it the other way.
16 league losses with shaolin already is quite a feat haha. Poor guy, I hope he is not a forum lurker (psst try using the dwarves or TF2 mate)
Request, if Monks get move 3, can the debuff they apply go away after they're dead?
Not making any balance claims, it's just annoying!
The player in question does have one win with Shaolin... but it's vs. Shaolin. ;)
The player in question does have one win with Shaolin... but it's vs. Shaolin. ;)
So shaolin's record without that person is 5 wins 28 losses? (6-1 and 45-(16+1))
Is that person's 1 and 16 record with Shaolin similar to that same person's record over all?
Wait, no. Does 6-45 not include any shaolin vs shaolin games?
You know, thinking about it, there's nothing wrong with having a "hard to play" team, as long as the top end is as good as any other team.
To take a Street Fighter example, Viper vs FeiLong. Viper unarguably takes a lot more manual dexterity to play, but when played to her full potential, is not in any way inferior to FeiLong, and some might even say perfectly played Viper contends for the best character in the game. You wouldn't know it from a low leveled match though, as a Fei gameplan is much simpler to execute and has fewer chances for screwups.
Similarly, in Starcraft Broodwar, Terran had a severe micro overhead, with juggling drops and seiging/unseiging, and if you didn't have good actions per minute (e.g. a fast mouseclickyhand) you probably did rather poorly with Terran as compared to Zerg. But still, at the highest levels, Terran were no weaker than Zerg, and arguably better than Zerg in maps which didn't require that much APM.
So, SL is still in its early days, and Zekers seems to be winning with ease - there's something that we're missing, it seems. I would still urge caution - there's room enough for different teams to cater for different (perhaps self-imposed) challenge levels. Like, say, DE vs DW (grumble)
You know, thinking about it, there's nothing wrong with having a "hard to play" team, as long as the top end is as good as any other team.
To take a Street Fighter example, Viper vs FeiLong. Viper unarguably takes a lot more manual dexterity to play, but when played to her full potential, is not in any way inferior to FeiLong, and some might even say perfectly played Viper contends for the best character in the game. You wouldn't know it from a low leveled match though, as a Fei gameplan is much simpler to execute and has fewer chances for screwups.
Similarly, in Starcraft Broodwar, Terran had a severe micro overhead, with juggling drops and seiging/unseiging, and if you didn't have good actions per minute (e.g. a fast mouseclickyhand) you probably did rather poorly with Terran as compared to Zerg. But still, at the highest levels, Terran were no weaker than Zerg, and arguably better than Zerg in maps which didn't require that much APM.
So, SL is still in its early days, and Zekers seems to be winning with ease - there's something that we're missing, it seems. I would still urge caution - there's room enough for different teams to cater for different (perhaps self-imposed) challenge levels. Like, say, DE vs DW (grumble)
Well I agree that the dude who is 1-16 was a big skew, and am glad to know that. But we dont know what Zekers thinks, he hasnt spoken to us. No one on the forum seems to think Shaolin are equal with best play and a lot of us have played a lot of games by this point (I have 18 or 19 Shaolin wins for example). I think pretty much the same as Trip I think - that they can be deadly when fully set up properly and with board position, but a lot needs to break their way to get there. Even when you do get there, you maybe spent so much of your items to get there that you are walking a very thin line -- the thinnest -- and can easily lose a game that feels won.
Wait, no. Does 6-45 not include any shaolin vs shaolin games?
This.
Wait, no. Does 6-45 not include any shaolin vs shaolin games?
This.
I'm pretty sure it includes 6 shaolin v shaolin matches.
(joke)
well i was playing a practise game with someone and i resigned (even tho i had 2 full geared units with an extra sword to his 1 sworded wizard) and he posted it as a league match. i dont know if u should add it to your statistics. But i do think the shaolin needs some major upgrade. they are a very poor team , like 3/10 strength compared to the other teams , its unbelievable
Wait, no. Does 6-45 not include any shaolin vs shaolin games?
This.
I'm pretty sure it includes 6 shaolin v shaolin matches.
(joke)
Last time I checked, there was only 1 Shaolin v. Shaolin match, and I excluded it from the count.
/bump