Shaolin map
A lot has been talked about concerning the team, but how about the map? To me, I think it's a complete crystal rush, similar to how the tribe map first came out. With the speed boost, two purple squares, and a central attack tile the crystals fall faster than you can get a handful of units out. I would like to see an increase in the crystals (similar to tribe map buff)
The powerboost tile gives alot of threat to both assult boost tiles which makes it harder to hold em. And these tiles are also kinda exposed, and even more exposed due to the new tile. When a unit stands on the tile they can reach your assult boost tile holder in 1 AP. And just like the teleport map 1 of the crystals is far back, next to an spawn tile, limiting the possibilities to reach it.
I remember in the good old days on prepatch teleport map. While its true it had some rush potential, 1 of the crystals was still far back so even if you destroyed the outer one fast the game was still far from over, and i guess its gonna be the same on this map (aka its a dwarf friendly map ^^).
But its just like art says, its probably too soon to say anything
Speed boost is completely OP for DW, is all I'm going to say. You're forced to cover the sword tile and the gem tile, or you're screwed.
Speed boost is completely OP for DW, is all I'm going to say. You're forced to cover the sword tile and the gem tile, or you're screwed.
that depends..
Putting a Pyro on the speed boost, especially on the first move of the game, is utter nastiness.
I like the new map, but thus far it's only come up twice since I can't pick it... So it's going to take a while to give a balance opinion.
One thing that is true though, because of the distances, the speed-tile is best used by range two or three units, not range-one units like the monk and warrior. Because they only move two and hit at range 1 and will need one more AP to attack the attack square / crystals. This makes the map better for factions who only have range two units, or whose range one units move three (like dark elves).
As has been pointed out previously, the Dwarf + move is not appropriate or balanced. Especially the Engineer getting +4 move. On other maps, the Dwarven tile bonus is very modest...here, it is huge.
very modest...
eh? :)
this is the kind of bonuses they should actually get with their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the more stronger teams i dunno if the racial trait should be doing something. But so far i hadnt have any real use of it yet, the only thing so far is the grenadier into the powerboost tile in one AP.
very modest...
eh? :)
this is the kind of bonuses they should actually get with their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the more stronger teams i dunno if the racial trait should be doing something. But so far i hadnt have any real use of it yet, the only thing so far is the grenadier into the powerboost tile in one AP.
How about engineer + drill snipers a unit of your choice? Engineer gets 6 move on the tile...the healer better stay on the deploy ramp...
very modest...
eh? :)
this is the kind of bonuses they should actually get with their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the more stronger teams i dunno if the racial trait should be doing something. But so far i hadnt have any real use of it yet, the only thing so far is the grenadier into the powerboost tile in one AP.
Not sure I feel comfortable with all the racial profiling going on in this thread.
EDIT: suggesting use of faction or team trait; seems like the Robots went out of their way to avoid using the loaded term.
Okay I finally understood why this map is totally broken. Dwarves get 150% and 200% move bonus on the move tile, making so that you can put a grenadier with a runesword and/or a scroll and auto-kill anything you want, anywhere on the map; engineer bubble it just to make sure. You can also just use engineers to pick off anything you want with a drill, as ArtNJ says. The bonus is insane and no dwarven player ranked 1300+ on the legaue should EVER loose a single match if they play this match. The map is completly broken!
The fixes for this map include:
1. Get rid of the dwarven bonus for the move tile, the bonus move should round down, +2 move doesn't become +3 or +4 move if you round down.
2. Change the map so that the bonus move is in the middle, where the attack tile is, and put the attack-tiles where the bonus moves are.
If you do this second change, now the move tile is exciting to hold because you can get attacks into the rear of the enemy, but it is also a risky position to occupy. attack tiles in the rear will give you something to hold onto to make deep attacks less accessible.
Note that the bonus move tile benefits most unit with high attack power built into just one unit. Especially those with range 3. It is also a great place to put an AOE attacker because you can get splash on the enemy units and/or crystal. So the attack tile is great for units like: Council: Archers, Ninja (kinda, can also just as easily teleport) DW: Grenaders, Annahilators, Tribe: Chieftan (kinda), kinda good for Axe, Witch and Warrior so that they can get position or single-out a target, TF2: Flamers, Spys, Grenaders and Rocket guys. Dark Elves: VM (kinda), Impalers (but less good than an Archer because of the 2-range), Wraith if you can eat and live/retreat with it to safety. Shaolin: hmmm
So out of all the factions, TF2 will get major use out of it with at least 8 candidates, Dwarves, assuming they do NOT get move bonus, will get value out of with at least 7 of their units (11 units if you keep the totally-broken move bonus), Council: at least 3 units will get good value from it. Tribe: a large amount of units will get some value from it, but less so that other teams (because their units either can already charge, or because they need two units together to get value. Dark Elves: overall less value from it, but implaers and VMs can use it; just less well than the other factions, with VM probably using it best (move 3+2=5), Shaolin: will struggle to get ~any~ value out of the tile, compared to the other teams. Why? Well using 1AP to get into position to do a combo gives you only +200 damage. 200 damage is the same as just not moving and hitting the enemy again. So the move square won't actually help to target out an opposing unit, or to do AOE damage and retreat (you can't use windblades as hit and run engines, the AOE damage is pathetic, it has to be used to set up combos...). You can use it with the poisoner to run in and KO a guy, or poison a few and run away, but that just isn't anywhere near as scary as the opponent putting a grenader with a sword upgrade who can move into your ranks for 1AP, hit anything they want for 300x3 damage and then spend 1AP to run away... or combine with a scroll/drill to stomp anything they want or to KO 2 to 4 guys in one turn -- and there is nothing you can do to stop it, really. Since the move tiles are so far back you can't block or KO the units on the move-tile.
From the above my conclusion is as follows:
(If Dwarves do NOT get a move bonus, in other words, if Robot fix that problem)
- Dwarves: 700
- Council: 400
- Tribe: 300
- DarkElves: 300
- TF2: 800
- Shaolin: 100
Higher the points, the better the move tile is for that faction. Points calculated by multiplying number of units who can use the move-tile, times 100 if effective, 50 if marginally effective, multiplied by number of units on the team who qualify to get benefit from it.
If you move the move tile to the middle of the map, at least then the teams who get more utility out of it will be much more hard pressed to keep the tile in their posesion.
Its a fun map, it doesnt necessarily need to be entirely fair to all factions if its within the realm of reason. Certain factions will always have edges on certain maps. For example, Council is benefitted on the map where the two crystals are close (fireball hits both). It may be that the map needs changes, but I'm not there yet -- aside from the Dwarf thing.
The Dwarf thing is not just a problem for Shaolin...who would want to be TF2 against Dwarves on this map? Can you really hide your healers from the magic move engineer + drill and still be effective?
very modest...
eh? :)
this is the kind of bonuses they should actually get with their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the more stronger teams i dunno if the racial trait should be doing something. But so far i hadnt have any real use of it yet, the only thing so far is the grenadier into the powerboost tile in one AP.
How about engineer + drill snipers a unit of your choice? Engineer gets 6 move on the tile...the healer better stay on the deploy ramp...
dwarves racial trait doesnt do anything. Except on this map which they gain a movement speed bonus. This is the kind of things dwarves SHOULD get of their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the strongest teams out there, i doubt they suddenly gaining of their racial trait wont really help on that balance :)
very modest...
eh? :)
this is the kind of bonuses they should actually get with their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the more stronger teams i dunno if the racial trait should be doing something. But so far i hadnt have any real use of it yet, the only thing so far is the grenadier into the powerboost tile in one AP.
How about engineer + drill snipers a unit of your choice? Engineer gets 6 move on the tile...the healer better stay on the deploy ramp...
dwarves racial trait doesnt do anything. Except on this map which they gain a movement speed bonus. This is the kind of things dwarves SHOULD get of their racial trait. But considering dwarves are one of the strongest teams out there, i doubt they suddenly gaining of their racial trait wont really help on that balance :)
DW gets 20 % extra on attack, defense and boost tiles and that is pretty good. And there is minimum three of these on each map. So I would say that their bonus is pretty effective. They can even combine this with the 5% extra they get to attack power and defense from each pally aura, meaning they can reach some of the highest defense and attack power stats for their regular units.
To round this 20% up to an extra move for all units on the speed tile is pretty steep especially with the current layout of the map. I agree that some maps are better for some teams, but someone who nows a little about what they are doing will dominate this map with the DW.
I could live with that the Engineer got 1 extra move, or none of them got an extra move on the speed tile.
The fixes for this map include:
1. Get rid of the dwarven bonus for the move tile, the bonus move should round down, +2 move doesn't become +3 or +4 move if you round down.
2. Change the map so that the bonus move is in the middle, where the attack tile is, and put the attack-tiles where the bonus moves are.
If you do this second change, now the move tile is exciting to hold because you can get attacks into the rear of the enemy, but it is also a risky position to occupy. attack tiles in the rear will give you something to hold onto to make deep attacks less accessible.
Note that the bonus move tile benefits most unit with high attack power built into just one unit. Especially those with range 3. It is also a great place to put an AOE attacker because you can get splash on the enemy units and/or crystal. So the attack tile is great for units like: Council: Archers, Ninja (kinda, can also just as easily teleport) DW: Grenaders, Annahilators, Tribe: Chieftan (kinda), kinda good for Axe, Witch and Warrior so that they can get position or single-out a target, TF2: Flamers, Spys, Grenaders and Rocket guys. Dark Elves: VM (kinda), Impalers (but less good than an Archer because of the 2-range), Wraith if you can eat and live/retreat with it to safety. Shaolin: hmmm
So out of all the factions, TF2 will get major use out of it with at least 8 candidates, Dwarves, assuming they do NOT get move bonus, will get value out of with at least 7 of their units (11 units if you keep the totally-broken move bonus), Council: at least 3 units will get good value from it. Tribe: a large amount of units will get some value from it, but less so that other teams (because their units either can already charge, or because they need two units together to get value. Dark Elves: overall less value from it, but implaers and VMs can use it; just less well than the other factions, with VM probably using it best (move 3+2=5), Shaolin: will struggle to get ~any~ value out of the tile, compared to the other teams. Why? Well using 1AP to get into position to do a combo gives you only +200 damage. 200 damage is the same as just not moving and hitting the enemy again. So the move square won't actually help to target out an opposing unit, or to do AOE damage and retreat (you can't use windblades as hit and run engines, the AOE damage is pathetic, it has to be used to set up combos...). You can use it with the poisoner to run in and KO a guy, or poison a few and run away, but that just isn't anywhere near as scary as the opponent putting a grenader with a sword upgrade who can move into your ranks for 1AP, hit anything they want for 300x3 damage and then spend 1AP to run away... or combine with a scroll/drill to stomp anything they want or to KO 2 to 4 guys in one turn -- and there is nothing you can do to stop it, really. Since the move tiles are so far back you can't block or KO the units on the move-tile.
From the above my conclusion is as follows:
(If Dwarves do NOT get a move bonus, in other words, if Robot fix that problem)
- Dwarves: 700
- Council: 400
- Tribe: 300
- DarkElves: 300
- TF2: 800
- Shaolin: 100
Higher the points, the better the move tile is for that faction. Points calculated by multiplying number of units who can use the move-tile, times 100 if effective, 50 if marginally effective, multiplied by number of units on the team who qualify to get benefit from it.
If you move the move tile to the middle of the map, at least then the teams who get more utility out of it will be much more hard pressed to keep the tile in their posesion.
I think you are underestimating the value for the Shaolin as it is good to be able to move an extra unit into position for a combo, even if it does not mean that you deal extra damage that round, compared to striking twice with the same unit. They will be able to gain board position, without loosing damage because of the combo, as well as having an extra unit ready to combo next turn. It might als help them to be able to setup a combo with three units.
I am not saying that it gives the shaolin a large boost, but I was not sure that you have included these considerations in your ranking, so I wanted to add it :)
Yes, moving forward helps, for sure, it is how the shaolin win. But the power of doing something cool in one turn (other teams) and over one turn (anything but shaolin) is clearly in favor of the 1-turn teams when it comes to a move boost.
Moving a unit FAR lets ONE unit strike deep. If I have one unit, say a Grenader at 300 with a scroll loaded, that's 900 damage to prety much anything i want on the board, and then I can hit one more time, or stomp and run away safely... and then just put a new guy on the speed tile and play again.
Moving "fast" with a shaolin unit will just get you a "free" move if you use it to do a combo (200 extra damage). One guy on his own can't do much, 200 base, 400 if you have a potion on it... a little more if its a poisoner. You can't do any surgical strikes with the move tile; hence why it is never, in my opinion, going to be as good for Shaolin than for another team.
The boost tile needs to be in the middle of the map, or it will be abused by TF2 and Dwarves more so than other factions. this primarily because they have so many units that do a lot of damage (often with AOE) in single-units and don't rely on combos as much as Tribe and Shaolin. Dark Elves main strength is having units whose health you can't reduce to zero in order to KO (leaching, and then tons of consumables that raise your life over 800). So Dark Elves will get sub-average value from it, but definetly more than Shaolin since they can get 450 impalers and have void monks who do AOE and move 3.
If this was a "Shaolin" map, then this move tile is the worst idea possible. If you really want a "shaolin" map, then instead of there being move tiles, there would be a string of armor/magical protection tiles in a chain towards the middle so that they can actually advance without dieing... Shaolin want a slow slug fest, not rapid attack in a single turn... their good attacks take 2 turns to materialize. The more (magical) armor they have access to, the more likely that they can do their multi-turn attack.
A "unique" sort of tile, would be a "rock" tile. The "rock" would be a tile that blocks Line of sight for both players (including grenadiers who normally shover things). Similar to how an enemy crystal blocks line of site, only better cause it would also block grenadiers. Perhaps it could have some life, like 2500. Or it could just be indistructible. I would imagine it visually to look like a column, supporting the roof of the battle-ground temple.
This, combined with both 1 physical and 1 magical protection tiles (two for each side, with magical armor in your rear, phsical armor somewhere closser to the front), would be a map that actually helps Shaolin, rather than hurts them.
Instead the Shaolin come with a map that only makes TF2 and Dwarves stronger (even without the dwarf racial modifire) and hurts Shaolin more than any other... it's quite ironic.
;-)
DW gets 20 % extra on attack, defense and boost tiles and that is pretty good. And there is minimum three of these on each map. So I would say that their bonus is pretty effective. They can even combine this with the 5% extra they get to attack power and defense from each pally aura, meaning they can reach some of the highest defense and attack power stats for their regular units. To round this 20% up to an extra move for all units on the speed tile is pretty steep especially with the current layout of the map. I agree that some maps are better for some teams, but someone who nows a little about what they are doing will dominate this map with the DW. I could live with that the Engineer got 1 extra move, or none of them got an extra move on the speed tile.
been there. done that. helps every 1/100 games or so maybe. so no it doesnt help, only in very weird occasions do you gain 1 AP (ish). Only time it actually helps is if your opponent wants to have a crystal race with you, which in that case your opponent is just stupid.
DW gets 20 % extra on attack, defense and boost tiles and that is pretty good. And there is minimum three of these on each map. So I would say that their bonus is pretty effective. They can even combine this with the 5% extra they get to attack power and defense from each pally aura, meaning they can reach some of the highest defense and attack power stats for their regular units. To round this 20% up to an extra move for all units on the speed tile is pretty steep especially with the current layout of the map. I agree that some maps are better for some teams, but someone who nows a little about what they are doing will dominate this map with the DW. I could live with that the Engineer got 1 extra move, or none of them got an extra move on the speed tile.
been there. done that. helps every 1/100 games or so maybe. so no it doesnt help, only in very weird occasions do you gain 1 AP (ish). Only time it actually helps is if your opponent wants to have a crystal race with you, which in that case your opponent is just stupid.
If you are the DW then you decide if there should be a crystal race not your opponent, so if you choose not to do that in most of your games then it is not something that means that this is not a good bonus. And if it helps prevent your opponent from using a ck strategy then it is a very useful bonus, in my opinion :)
If you are the DW then you decide if there should be a crystal race not your opponent, so if you choose not to do that in most of your games then it is not something that means that this is not a good bonus. And if it helps prevent your opponent from using a ck strategy then it is a very useful bonus, in my opinion :)
if i want to rush his crystals but he doesnt and chooses to defend, your not gonna last long as a dwarf. If you wanna CK without a rush war you need to whittle down the enemy crystals enough before your all in rush. And people with common sense shouldnt really wait for the dwarf to own you and play aggressive, resulting in doing low crystal dmg.
if the opponent goes for the CK win without going into a rush war CK, then the bonus wont help either since you will be busy defending. Since the opponent wont go into a CK rush wars.
So either way, the bonus does nothing unless your opponent is stupid. So its a very useless bonus in my opinion :)
Dwarves bonus has helped be as Dwarves plenty of times. And I've seen it be the factor that prevented me from getting a KO when attacking them too on a number of occasions. It's not a huge bonus, but it is certainly not useless; especially when it comes to crystal attacks, and that is very significant, not insignificant.
I don't see the point of arguing that the Dwarven bonus isn't significant when clearly the team is probably in the top-2 teams right now... they already do just fine. :-)
i know they are doing fine, im just stating that :
1. racial trait is useless (very close to useless)
2. bonuses from this new map is the kind of thing it SHOULD actually get (aka fun and usefull things)
3. but considering they are the second strongest team out there i doubt they need any buffs at the moment.
4. suprised they implemented something on this new map but did nothing on the old maps (better be consistant and go all in or do nothing afterall)
Dwarves bonus has helped be as Dwarves plenty of times. And I've seen it be the factor that prevented me from getting a KO when attacking them too on a number of occasions. It's not a huge bonus, but it is certainly not useless; especially when it comes to crystal attacks, and that is very significant, not insignificant.
I don't see the point of arguing that the Dwarven bonus isn't significant when clearly the team is probably in the top-2 teams right now... they already do just fine. :-)
Just ignore Hiruma on the Dwarven racial's utility. I think he is very wrong, but I am not sure mere logic can persuade him when the subject is his precious Dwarves. It took him months to accept that Grenadiers were not the red-headed step child of the team :)
Its true that the Dwarves racial is far from the best, but its definitely not useless. Council arguably doesnt even have a faction edge as the healers of other teams are arguably just as good as Council's healers with their own unique edges that are not considered part of their faction edge.
Just ignore Hiruma on the Dwarven racial's utility. I think he is very wrong, but I am not sure mere logic can persuade him when the subject is his precious Dwarves. It took him months to accept that Grenadiers were not the red-headed step child of the team :)
haha you know me too well art :)
but its almost the truth, as for the grenadiers. Its more of a hate since everyone overestimates the grenadier and underestimate the gunner which causes me to dislike the grenadier. And i equip the grenadier 7/10 times or so maybe since it works better if it aint a top notch opponent, than the gunner is much more usefull actually :)
Its true that the Dwarves racial is far from the best, but its definitely not useless. Council arguably doesnt even have a faction edge as the healers of other teams are arguably just as good as Council's healers with their own unique edges that are not considered part of their faction edge.
And i know Council's is even worse, since you read the forums you know i've been pointing it out for a long time. But aslong as council doesnt struggle they will never get a new one so its abit sad :(
Can you even remember 5 games that the racial trait actually helped? I think i can almost count it on my fingers, if it seriously helps people enough so they actually like it. I guess i must be playing dwarves like an idiot, but i guess it works for me :)
I have yet to play a game on this map. Can someone post a screenshot of it please?
Moontz you started a pretty disputed agruement!
I have yet to play a game on this map. Can someone post a screenshot of it please?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/imageltvd.jpg/
Oh man, I'm playing on the new map for the first time now, and boy is it an uber-fast map. Unfortunately for me, it is a league match and TheycallmeVic is steamrolling to a crystal kill in round 17 or so in our TF2 v. TF2 matchup.
What is crazy is that I have yet to hit either of his crystals even once, but I'm pretty confident that I could get the CK myself if I could wrest away the initiative for just a couple of rounds. Maybe the crystals could use some beefing up?
I have yet to play a game on this map. Can someone post a screenshot of it please?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/imageltvd.jpg/
Thanks!!
Heres what i think: the spped boost tile should be changed from each player haveing sole control of one, to there being one central speed tile. This would resolve DW being OP with it, but would still have an advantage. It would also reduce the issue with fast cyrstal kills. It would be used less as a crystal rush and more of an escape mechanism. Obviously just theory, but i think it would solve most of these issues mentioned
A lot has been talked about concerning the team, but how about the map? To me, I think it's a complete crystal rush, similar to how the tribe map first came out. With the speed boost, two purple squares, and a central attack tile the crystals fall faster than you can get a handful of units out. I would like to see an increase in the crystals (similar to tribe map buff)
With so many maps, I havent seen it enough to have real opinions. It did seem fun though, the speed boost matters, but isnt map breaking. The way the special tiles should work.