Shaolin are 4-26 in League Play
Just looking for some sort of reaction Robot, because this is getting kind of ridiculous. Its not early anymore.
Anything I missed?
Don't forget: bamboo shouldn't count as a unit for the purposes of the opening hand. When you open with two bamboo and only one real unit, it's an uphill battle.
PS: I think they are focussing on the server update/move right now, so I don't think they will even think about balance changes until after the planned downtime on Wednesday. Personally, I am glad they are upgrading the servers, as that is currently my biggest complaint with the game (unrealiable, slow, buggy servers).
Thanks.
I don't see why they can't do both. The Shaolin really need a buff and I'd like to see some modest changes soon. I think some of the suggestions go too far for this early on in the process, but modest changes like a range 3 move monk could be implemented without too much risk IMO.
I got an idea and want go out on a limb ... to say: what about that the taoist is not here to heal mostly. I mean I can't imagine that taoist healing 3-4 times for max heal is planned for the team. I think that the monk should be mostly used shield and reducing the hp of the front line, through the high hp he will be mostly just k.o'd and with the shadow rez, he is going back or fullfilling his duty as hp reducing. So to be short, I feel like the monk is just as kamikaze unit.
The monk is the only unit, which makes 200 dmg without upgrade to a drunk dwarv (well he would do even 200 dmg when it has 100%, I guess. Anyone tested?)
I thought we almost had a consensus a while back on Monk move to 3, Taoist heal to 3, Windblade damage to 100/66/66, bamboo isnt considered a unit, but since that time many additional changes have been proposed. I still thank that sort of package is the most consistent with the incremental tweak approach Robot seems to like in balance changes. Of the additional changes proposed, I think splash heal and increase in combo damage are the most likely/consistent with Robot's usual approach.
I trust Robot and Zekers, I'd just like to hear their thoughts/plan since I think this is the biggest imbalance since release of the game. Dark Elves 1.0 didnt get butchered like this.
Agreed. Also, I'll add the windblade 100/66/66 thing. Forgot about that too.
I think windblade 100/66/66 damage is too much. This means that a sworded windblade can run in and down 3 unupgraded units every time as long as they are touching in some way. At least with the void monk you can have one unit in front to tank most of the splash but there would be no escaping this. I think moving it up to 100/50/50 is sufficient.
Maybe even 100/33/33 would be fine. The Shaolin have a weak AoE but a stronger one may not be needed if they are able to combo more effectively and withstand attack. The asymmetry really needs to be resolved though.
A range-3 monk alone will be a huge difference -- I'd be very hesitant to make too many changes at once, despite their obvious initial shortcomings.
No one thinks the Shadow and his ability should be tweaked at all? I mean how many of you, playing against a decent opponent, have actually used his conversion to take and use the converted unit for anything more than a ranged stomp that they have to waste ap to kill? Out of the 28-ish matches with shaolin i have had, i have not been able to use a converted unit to use their abilities or team perk or heal and retreat and equip with items like the shaolin challenges show off. And dittos where the shadows can just take turns playing tug-of-war with a unit should be fixed, converted units should not be able to be re-converted imo.
Super Units are meant to be team mascotts and threats with team themed, useful, spectacular abilities, correct?
The Ninja's ability to teleport is amazing and useful, works the way it should
The Annihilator's debuff ability is awesome and useful
The Chieftan's charge and whirlwind are essential to tribe and very useful
The Wraith is a very cool super unit and ability to eat the fallen and gain power and range stomp and create a fork(kill wraith or other unit)
The Shadow.... high hp tank that can range stomp but not plausibly convert and use KO'd units to their potential??
Please all haters that want to cut down my opinion - find someone else to annoy. You have your opinions that i don't dissect or critique. I just want to see if there are other hero academy lovers that think the shadow is lacking the spark and usefulness that the other super units have captured.
Please all haters that want to cut down my opinion - find someone else to annoy. You have your opinions that i don't dissect or critique. I just want to see if there are other hero academy lovers that think the shadow is lacking the spark and usefulness that the other super units have captured.
Just to clarify, you only want responses from people who agree with you, is that right?
my purpose behind it was to see if there are any others who feel the Shadow to be a bit awkward and not work as he should, but by all means voice your own opinion, i'm just tired of people critiqing and picking apart someone's opinion on the game.
Two advantages of the Shadow:
- Ranged stomp. Like CE, but better as it makes your opponent waste one AP killing the resurrected, two to stomp it as well. Exceptionally sweet if you kill a +3 hero and resurrect him naked.
- Ranged tank. Fully decked out, he's so hard to kill with 40% magic. And he contributes to combos from a distance.
Is he a unique character? Yes.
Is he doing what he was marketed to be? (using your opponent against themselves), I've not really seen much success with that.
I still think it'd be cool if the Shadow could heal.
I think the shadow Rez should combo heal with the Taoist. Rez shadow, bigger heal from Taoist.
What if rez from shadow gave you an extra AP? That way, you could at least pull back the rezd unit and maybe drop a heal on them later. That forces an opponent to use 2 AP to take care of it.
Also, aoe shreds this team. Need a buff to that somehow. Ideas are in that other thread about formation resistance. If you keep your units in formation, your aoe resistance goes up.
Hi. I've been a lurker for awhile (ever since HA came out on iOS), and have played quite a bit. Rather intimidated by the knowledge and implied skill of posters here so I have yet to join the league, but I like to think I'm a decent player. I play tons of random and do pretty well with all the other teams, but Shaolin are definitely tricky, and relative to the other teams I think they really lack high burst and good defense, and their combo mechanic requires a level of coordination and movement that is simply lacking with a 5AP, 2-move team.
However, I believe very strongly in a unique team playstyle/abilities being an old school Starcraft player, so I think AP boosting should be out of the question since that's clearly TF2 territory. Ditto for any self-healing.
But I thought two things might be a possiblity, one of which I haven't seen suggested before, and another that has only been sparsely offered:
1) Make combo points persist between turns. Right now, they expire at the end of the turn, but let them stay on a unit. And also have them fade off a unit at a rate of one per turn. What this means is if you have 1 combo point on a unit, it's good for one round. If you have four, next round, your tagged target starts with 4 combo points, but then diminishes to 3 a turn later, and so forth. This counteracts the lack of high base damage units and also would mitigate the low buff of the combo potion. It would also encourage combo'ing because it would give you greater flexibility and allow you to slowly build it up. This would solve the AP cap problem since you no longer have just 5 AP to execute a combo (since you can use AP from your previous rounds to place the first or more combo points). And you have greater freedom in the targets you can choose because you could spend some turns tagging multiple targets for future capitalization. I don't think it would unbalance the team too much, especially with the fading effect, and really needs you to commit to the kill in order to fully take advantage. But I think something needs to be done to encourage combo use and because the combo mechanic as it stands now is too clumsy to use due to the inherent limitations of only having 5AP and 2-move increments to do it in. Also, as a side effect, I think this would encourage use of the Shadow as well, as he would be the perfect setup man with his 3 movement.
2) In keeping with making the Shadow useful and unique, I think he could definitely be buffed. However, I think making him have a higher base damage might be the wrong direction. I think Robot should seriously consider making him our first HEALER hero. Give him the ability to heal, albeit at his lower base damage, which means only +200 heal per AP. Not game breaking, but I think it makes him a game changer. With this change, Shaolin has FOUR healers and one is the game's best tank! Shaolin's other proven weakness (besides low burst) vis a vis other teams is healing and defense. By giving them a fourth healer, and one that is tough as nails, you also somewhat mitigate these weaknesses. Now, perhaps his heal could be an area burst effect, which means he heals adjacent squares (same area as the grenadier). I think that by making this AOE heal effect unique to the Shadow, you don't overbalance the Shaolin team but do give them a way to somewhat counteract AOE damage, but it's done in a unique way that further differentiates and highlights the Shadow. And makes him more useful than just as a meat shield (since the ability to res and actually use a converted unit is so rare).
Anyway, just offering these up as I haven't seen them really touched on and am hoping to see what the enlightened community here thinks. I definitely trust much of the wisdom here as I go here often by default to know what's going on with the game and to verify or debunk my own thoughts about team and map balance.
My two cents.
Thanks,
EAyopa
Hi. I've been a lurker for awhile (ever since HA came out on iOS), and have played quite a bit. Rather intimidated by the knowledge and implied skill of posters here so I have yet to join the league, but I like to think I'm a decent player. I play tons of random and do pretty well with all the other teams, but Shaolin are definitely tricky, and relative to the other teams I think they really lack high burst and good defense, and their combo mechanic requires a level of coordination and movement that is simply lacking with a 5AP, 2-move team.
However, I believe very strongly in a unique team playstyle/abilities being an old school Starcraft player, so I think AP boosting should be out of the question since that's clearly TF2 territory. Ditto for any self-healing.
But I thought two things might be a possiblity, one of which I haven't seen suggested before, and another that has only been sparsely offered:
1) Make combo points persist between turns. Right now, they expire at the end of the turn, but let them stay on a unit. And also have them fade off a unit at a rate of one per turn. What this means is if you have 1 combo point on a unit, it's good for one round. If you have four, next round, your tagged target starts with 4 combo points, but then diminishes to 3 a turn later, and so forth. This counteracts the lack of high base damage units and also would mitigate the low buff of the combo potion. It would also encourage combo'ing because it would give you greater flexibility and allow you to slowly build it up. This would solve the AP cap problem since you no longer have just 5 AP to execute a combo (since you can use AP from your previous rounds to place the first or more combo points). And you have greater freedom in the targets you can choose because you could spend some turns tagging multiple targets for future capitalization. I don't think it would unbalance the team too much, especially with the fading effect, and really needs you to commit to the kill in order to fully take advantage. But I think something needs to be done to encourage combo use and because the combo mechanic as it stands now is too clumsy to use due to the inherent limitations of only having 5AP and 2-move increments to do it in. Also, as a side effect, I think this would encourage use of the Shadow as well, as he would be the perfect setup man with his 3 movement.
2) In keeping with making the Shadow useful and unique, I think he could definitely be buffed. However, I think making him have a higher base damage might be the wrong direction. I think Robot should seriously consider making him our first HEALER hero. Give him the ability to heal, albeit at his lower base damage, which means only +200 heal per AP. Not game breaking, but I think it makes him a game changer. With this change, Shaolin has FOUR healers and one is the game's best tank! Shaolin's other proven weakness (besides low burst) vis a vis other teams is healing and defense. By giving them a fourth healer, and one that is tough as nails, you also somewhat mitigate these weaknesses. Now, perhaps his heal could be an area burst effect, which means he heals adjacent squares (same area as the grenadier). I think that by making this AOE heal effect unique to the Shadow, you don't overbalance the Shaolin team but do give them a way to somewhat counteract AOE damage, but it's done in a unique way that further differentiates and highlights the Shadow. And makes him more useful than just as a meat shield (since the ability to res and actually use a converted unit is so rare).
Anyway, just offering these up as I haven't seen them really touched on and am hoping to see what the enlightened community here thinks. I definitely trust much of the wisdom here as I go here often by default to know what's going on with the game and to verify or debunk my own thoughts about team and map balance.
My two cents.
Thanks,
EAyopa
I agree totally with Item 1. This will encourage movement, which is what shaolin needs.
Concerning (2), I agree that healing is a weakness and I agree that it seems stange that Shadow cannot heal, since he can rez. I am not sure, tho, if item 1 was implemented, whether shaolin would need any more buffing. Maybe shadow could just heal turned units.
Concerning (2), I agree that healing is a weakness.
Another idea in terms of strengthening shaloin healing is to give combo bonus healing. 2 healers heal the same unit gets a bonus...
1) Make combo points persist between turns. Right now, they expire at the end of the turn, but let them stay on a unit. And also have them fade off a unit at a rate of one per turn. What this means is if you have 1 combo point on a unit, it's good for one round. If you have four, next round, your tagged target starts with 4 combo points, but then diminishes to 3 a turn later, and so forth. This counteracts the lack of high base damage units and also would mitigate the low buff of the combo potion. It would also encourage combo'ing because it would give you greater flexibility and allow you to slowly build it up. This would solve the AP cap problem since you no longer have just 5 AP to execute a combo (since you can use AP from your previous rounds to place the first or more combo points). And you have greater freedom in the targets you can choose because you could spend some turns tagging multiple targets for future capitalization. I don't think it would unbalance the team too much, especially with the fading effect, and really needs you to commit to the kill in order to fully take advantage. But I think something needs to be done to encourage combo use and because the combo mechanic as it stands now is too clumsy to use due to the inherent limitations of only having 5AP and 2-move increments to do it in. Also, as a side effect, I think this would encourage use of the Shadow as well, as he would be the perfect setup man with his 3 movement.
I agree totally with Item 1. This will encourage movement, which is what shaolin needs.
Healing will need to reset it. That is, shaolin team hits enemy unit X and X gets combo aura. Enemy team heals X, turns off combo aura. Otherwise it is way too strong. Especially on defense.
I haven't bought the Shaolin, but played against them a few games. The healing is problematic for long games, but I feel this could be a good fast-game team. When a combo goes off it can be quite devastating. The main problem for my opponents seems to be getting into position to combo. Typically they have to use an entire turn to prepare, which gives me an entire turn to respond either by adapting my formation or by launching a pre-emptive strike.
I'd say the obvious solution is adding a "reverse typhoon", perhaps instead of another item?
The Tribe typhoon moves enemy units up and down the field, breaking up formations and allowing me to pick off dangerous units. A reverse typhoon would move friendly units up the field? This would be a very strong offensive move!
I actually think the shaolin are more dependent on the shadow than any other team is on their super unit, the shadow should stay the same and buff the other units (slightly) so they aren't so dependent on the shadow, but this is just one persons humble opinion
I'm curious who's playing SL in the league, with those kind of numbers being thrown around.
Agreed with #1
as for #2 how about units rezzed by shadow start with 201 hp that would make it easier for them to surivive their conversion.
A range-3 monk alone will be a huge difference -- I'd be very hesitant to make too many changes at once, despite their obvious initial shortcomings.
agreeing with this one.
we all do remember the +1 VM movement buff, before everyone thought he was crap. Now hes probably one of the most loved units in the game. Buffs like movement speed and attack range etc is much bigger buffs then others, so when giving a buff like +1 to monk we should be carefull with the rest.
and i doubt the shadow should be buffed at all. Right now he can have 1200hp 20/40 resist 3 movement 3 range with also the ability to ress units and taking over the opponents units (which will take the opponent 2 AP to remove from the game). If we also add combo by things like ressing and healing even the shadow can start doing "some" dmg, despite his low starting dmg of 100. But i guess everyones experience with the shadow is diffrent ^^
I agree that the Shadow probably doesn't need a buff (at least not yet). Yes, it's difficult to fully take advantage of converted units, but even as a buffed range stomp (since it takes 2AP to get rid of freshly converted units) it's still a powerful ability and huge tempo swing. Combined with the Shadow's toughness, it serves as a huge deterrent for enemy advances.
Admittedly, it would be fun if it was easier to convert units and take full advantage of them, but I feel that would require a complete reworking of the Shadow. He'd have to be a lot less durable, and personally, I feel like it's more refreshing to finally have a tanky Super unit (Ninjas, Wraiths, and Annihilators are frail, and though the Chieftain has high HP, he has no inherent defenses and you can't increase them).
Well, 1.1 was the Void Monk move buff, and didnt the nec also get 10% magic resists or something, and there was a largely meaningless nerf to the phantoms. So two buffs, albeit one minor. Prior the buff, DE was winning 30% against Council. So the Shaolin situation might be worse.
I agree that Shaolin Monk should get move 3 as the first and main buff. This will help a lot to be sure -- might even be a case for runemetaling him (or not, I'm not sure). However, I really think the monk move buff should be paired with at least one other buff, even if modest. Maybe boosting the Taoist's heal range is too much, but how about bringing the Windblade to 100/50/50? Leaving aside balance, 100/50/25 with the mechanism shrouded in mystery is really annoying. I cant see the extra 25% mattering enough to make the Shaolin OP.
Well, 1.1 was the Void Monk move buff, and didnt the nec also get 10% magic resists or something, and there was a largely meaningless nerf to the phantoms. Prior the buff, DE was winning 30% against Council. So the Shaolin situation might be worse.
I agree that Shaolin Monk should get move 3 as the first and main buff. This will help a lot to be sure -- might even be a case for runemetaling him (or not, I'm not sure). However, I really think the monk move buff should be paired with at least one other buff, even if modest. Maybe boosting the Taoist's heal range is too much, but how about bringing the Windblade to 100/50/50? Leaving aside balance, 100/50/25 with the mechanism shrouded in mystery is really annoying. I cant see the extra 25% mattering enough to make the Shaolin OP.
The necro didn't get any resistance (the wizard was the one who got it), but the VM's splash was also improved to 66%. First edition VM was pretty bad... low mobility + melee attack with weak AOE.
This shows some interesting symmetry between the DE buffs and your proposed SL buffs (which I agree with): increase melee unit's range and bump up splash damage. I think those two changes alone would make a huge difference for the SL team, just as they did for the Elves.
as i have said EVERY SINGLE POST SINCE SHAOLIN WAS ADDED TO HERO ACADEMY...Robot messed up big time with this team, and really hurt the game...and no way would Robot ever admit that this team is completely useless...Shaolin would need a MASSIVE buff in order to be able to compete in league play...because the biggest flaw of the team is the "combo" ability...which is "their thing", its what makes them a worthwhile team...without the combo thing they're just another boring team...the problem is, the combo ability is no suitable for Hero Academy playstyle...Robot messed up big time and I am REALLY happy that the statistics prove it
Sorry haven't read them all, but if this is a summary post, I think the windblade could also be helped with some armor. Would make it more resistant inherently to AOE and allow you to put armor elsewhere (or on it) to increase general serviceability in the face of AOE damage.
taost could also get chain bonus for healing.
but an even better additinal move would be to reduce splash damage of TF2 and DW since they do currently too much AOE damage compared to every other team.
Maybe it'd help if there's an easy-to-access list of proposed changes. Give them something to work off of. I might as well do it. Needless to say you can add stuff. From what I recall, the list of proposed changes are:
Taoist:
Increase attack range to 3 for easier combos.
Increase heal range to 3 for better AoE recovery
aSome sort of AoE heal to deal with AoE damage
Inherent resists
Monk:
Increase movement range to 3
Increase initial movement to 3, then subsequent movement to 2
Windblade:
Increase movement and/or attack range to 3
Remove the asymmetry, have 100/33/33% attack or 100/66/66% attack.
Poisoner:
Immunity to AoE damage
Shadow:
Quite well balanced.
Combo potion:
Increase amounts (possibly swap with runemetal)
Give defense/resist boost with potion
General mechanics:
Free AP for first move
Free AP for 2nd (and possibly subsequent) combo
Combo is sustianed for multiple attacks by the same unit
Bamboo:
Bamboo should not be counted as a unit (so you don't get two bamboo and 1 unit in your opening hand)
Anything I missed?