Shaolin are 2-18 In League Play
I think the combo bonus is great. And the fact that they require team synergy makes them unique. They just need some buffs to make the team bonus work.
attacking them is tough because they get easier combos on defense. Exception being if you can range stomp. Because TF2 gets a bonus AP for stomping it also gives them an inherent advantage over SL because they can stomp and then run away to avoid cross-fire or Shadow retaliation conversion... (Making TF2 inherently better powered vs. SL just because of their team bonus).
but I regress. What I mean is, they need buffs that allow them to be a nice semi-offensive, semi-defensive team so that they are not a turtle team like dwarves but still rely on slow gradual team/group positions pressing forward. Clearly their vulnerability to AOE is the main issue to making this strategy work at the moment.
I think the combo bonus is great. And the fact that they require team synergy makes them unique. They just need some buffs to make the team bonus work.
attacking them is tough because they get easier combos on defense. Exception being if you can range stomp. Because TF2 gets a bonus AP for stomping it also gives them an inherent advantage over SL because they can stomp and then run away to avoid cross-fire or Shadow retaliation conversion... (Making TF2 inherently better powered vs. SL just because of their team bonus).
but I regress. What I mean is, they need buffs that allow them to be a nice semi-offensive, semi-defensive team so that they are not a turtle team like dwarves but still rely on slow gradual team/group positions pressing forward. Clearly their vulnerability to AOE is the main issue to making this strategy work at the moment.
I think its more complex than that. TF2 only has 2 healers and 1 healer can potentially be sniped *on turn 1* by Shaolin, albeit at a high cost. Plus, TF2 has many powerful 800 health 0 resist units that can potentially be more readily converted than offensive units from other teams. Once Shaolin gets buffed, they may well do comparatively better against TF2 than certain other teams. Or not -- I have no idea, just saying it seems complicated.
Oh yes, it's not just one factor why tf2 is doing well vs all teams, and especially vs Shaolin. I was just pointing out that because tf2 gets a bonus move, Shaolin can't do a turtle defense vs tf2 at all. Tf2 just stomp and move 1 away, which makes it no longer possible to combo in retaliation easily.
tf2 has weaknesses, but the problem is that tf2s strengths match exactly tf2s weaknesses... So it's an especially hard balance to accommodate for. You'd think squishy means you can shadow convert them, but the bonus AP they get for a stomp prevents that.
Meanwhile their excessively high attack powers and lots of AOE damage, plus the snipper and spy... Well the combination is just brutal for Shaolin. I'm at the point where I feel dwarves a bit easier to beat, cause you need to worry only about tripple-buffed grenadiers (gunner) and annahilators. Whereas with TF2 you have to worry about 8 guys and they can respawn 2 of them. With dwarves at least you can dragon+bamboo kill a buffed dwarf and then get some peace for a second. With tf2 far more of their units are offensive and 6 of them do AOE damage...
If tf2 and DW get an overall reduction in splash damage, it would help to make them less anti-Shaolin, while at the same time making them less overall strong vs the other teams too. But with tf2 I'd still also reduce snipper damage a bit so you can't 1-shot jarrate kill anything you want, and also reduce the medics self heal to 0 or 25%... Forcing them to keep offensive and making hits count. (Or reduce base attack of medic to 150 from 200). But I do realize that a number of people here disagree, even though I think it would be a great way to ensure that the team stays aggressive and never us allowed to go too passive.
They can add attack upgrades to all their guys if left alone, nullifying DE health upgrades; which is another reason they do well vs DE. So limiting their healing would really stop them from being able to wait on their side of the board while doing comprehensive upgrades to all their guys and waiting for you to attack them and waist your scrolls... Less tf2 healing, less AOE damage (grenader splash decrease, heavy splash decrease, and make the flamer do only 75% to second tile), lower the snipper damage so you can't get over 900 with jarrate... That would rebalance tf2.
If tf2 and DW get an overall reduction in splash damage, it would help to make them less anti-Shaolin, while at the same time making them less overall strong vs the other teams too. But with tf2 I'd still also reduce snipper damage a bit so you can't 1-shot jarrate kill anything you want, and also reduce the medics self heal to 0 or 25%... Forcing them to keep offensive and making hits count. (Or reduce base attack of medic to 150 from 200). But I do realize that a number of people here disagree, even though I think it would be a great way to ensure that the team stays aggressive and never us allowed to go too passive.
They can add attack upgrades to all their guys if left alone, nullifying DE health upgrades; which is another reason they do well vs DE. So limiting their healing would really stop them from being able to wait on their side of the board while doing comprehensive upgrades to all their guys and waiting for you to attack them and waist your scrolls... Less tf2 healing, less AOE damage (grenader splash decrease, heavy splash decrease, and make the flamer do only 75% to second tile), lower the snipper damage so you can't get over 900 with jarrate... That would rebalance tf2.
All those changes together would effectvely neuter TF2. I think your various balancing ideas are generally good, thoughtful suggestions individually, but as a whole they would amount to a complete role reversal of current standings -- we'd see TF2 and Dwarves at the bottom while Tribe and Shaolin would be the new dominant teams. This may be sweet revenge for long-suffering Tribe/DE players (and short-suffering Shaolin players, if any actually exist), but it's not going to contribute to long-term balance.
I actually find the Shaolin vs. TF2 matchup one of the better ones for SL. And of course, by "better" I mean slightly less bad. ;) Without armor, Windblade AOE can actually accomplish something every now and then. Since there's not much need for single-unit sniping, the Dragon can actually be used on multiple units, and no Medic is safe as long as Dragons and Bamboo are still available. Finally, Taoists offer SL a hard-counter for pre-jarate tricks, which is a HUGE benefit for the survivability of Shaolin super-units.
I actually find the Shaolin vs. TF2 matchup one of the better ones for SL. And of course, by "better" I mean slightly less bad. ;) Without armor, Windblade AOE can actually accomplish something every now and then. Since there's not much need for single-unit sniping, the Dragon can actually be used on multiple units, and no Medic is safe as long as Dragons and Bamboo are still available. Finally, Taoists offer SL a hard-counter for pre-jarate tricks, which is a HUGE benefit for the survivability of Shaolin super-units.
I agree TF2 is actually a decent match-up. TF2's glass cannons make for excellent converts, and if you can gear them up a bit, they get terrifying. Generally, playing as TF2 means throwing units at your opponent, and keeping them pressured. But that's basically exactly what the Shaolin want you to do.
Oh 20/20 1440 heavy, you so crazy. Oh 450 to two target pyro you so crazy.
I actually find the Shaolin vs. TF2 matchup one of the better ones for SL. And of course, by "better" I mean slightly less bad. ;) Without armor, Windblade AOE can actually accomplish something every now and then. Since there's not much need for single-unit sniping, the Dragon can actually be used on multiple units, and no Medic is safe as long as Dragons and Bamboo are still available. Finally, Taoists offer SL a hard-counter for pre-jarate tricks, which is a HUGE benefit for the survivability of Shaolin super-units.
I agree TF2 is actually a decent match-up. TF2's glass cannons make for excellent converts, and if you can gear them up a bit, they get terrifying. Generally, playing as TF2 means throwing units at your opponent, and keeping them pressured. But that's basically exactly what the Shaolin want you to do.
How often do you get to gear a convert? I have 15 Shaolin wins and while I have occassionally used a combo potion to heal a convert, I do so only to buy time...they never live, and I never get to keep them, unless the game is already decided anyway.
Every so often people forget that you have dragons when they go for a risky stomp, or sometimes they suicide to take out a high value target. Boom converts in a safe location
Every so often people forget that you have dragons when they go for a risky stomp, or sometimes they suicide to take out a high value target. Boom converts in a safe location
Well, I just don't see why the tf2 is rushing vs Shaolin. You hold the middle of the board, and you mill them to death with AOE. Wait for them to attack you. That's how you beat Shaolin as tf2. If you can do damage to the crystal at the same time, then great, but the focus currently is on using AOE with spy/snipper/jarate/flamer threat to make counter attacks painful/impossible.
as for my changes being potentially too many, I don't have the stats so I can't give a final proposal package. I also can't test proposed changes. But I do think tf2 and dwarves are at the top, and I do stand by my thoughts that they both need to do less splash damage, not only for Shaolin, but also compared to all other teams. I don't see how lowering their splash would make them suddenly the worst teams when they are currently the best ones.
im all for progressive changes, I'd have to know how robots works on this. If they do 1 balance patch a month, then you could do very small incremental changes. If patches are only once every 3 months, you want to do a bigger change (equals exactly what you think it should be) so that you can see if it was correct or not, and if oh went "over" the balance point, you can just look at the stats to see how far over you went.
if the team was winning 40% of the time, and now 55% of the time, and you did 3 changes, probably one of them was too many. So in e next patch you can factor that in. Naturally it's all a network of changes and interactions, so you always need to isolate the issue as best as you can. Small precision changes that impact as specifically as possible are naturally the best kinds of changes.
I would like to see balance changes come a maximum of one per team at a time. Makes it easy to remember and doesn't break a lot of existing knowledge.
For example:
Nerf Sniper damage
Increase Witch splash a little.
Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
Make phantoms 225 hp. No stomping needed, still. I'm kind of serious. My reasoning: All DE units are perfect. But as a team, they need a little help.
Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
If we have multiple patches as a way to get balance, then I'm all for small changes. If Shaolin can only get one change (but I honestly think they need at least two...) then it would have to be a buff to the monk so that its at least useful for something other than a
Walking piece of bamboo
(which honestly doesn't do the bamboo justice since it can range stomp and the monk has to walk on over to do the same...)
I agree with Adazaa's list, except for the DE. 225 phantoms would be an extremely huge buff and im really not for it. DE only need a very small minor buff. I'd instead make the Wraith start at 800 life. Leave the spirits as-is, they are already very effective at what they do (block LoS, force waisted AP, threaten crystals/tiles, used for further stomping when you can send one in deep)
For example:
I'd amend it slightly to:
Nerf Sniper damage at little (remember they only have 2, and usually waste a jarate to use the power effectively), increase medic health a little (they only have 2)
Increase Witch splash back up (they desperately need AoE)
Decrease Grenadier spash a little. And decrease engineer bubble range to 2/or remove Pally aura. Round down speed boost on tile.
DE - start Wraith higher, with smaller gains to same upper limit.
Shaolin - increase Monk range to 3. Increase poisoner health/or allow combos between turns (balance losing 1 combo point per turn).
Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
Regarding the initial Wraith HP buff: this might actually be of a slight disadvantage to the DE against the Shaolin. The Monk reduces a unit's max HP by 25% of its original value. So increasing the Wraith initial HP will increase the HP deduction by the Monk without helping the Wraith in the long term.
Regarding the initial Wraith HP buff: this might actually be of a slight disadvantage to the DE against the Shaolin. The Monk reduces a unit's max HP by 25% of its original value. So increasing the Wraith initial HP will increase the HP deduction by the Monk without helping the Wraith in the long term.
That could be acceptable, as a specific buff to Shaolin vs DE. Or, Wraith could be given the ability to feed by spawning on top of a unit instead of the suggested increased starting health.
What about increasing combo damage? At the moment it's 400 damage (+200) for the second combo point, which means where base units are concerned it offers no bonus whatsoever on the attack as it just cancels out the 200dmg attack lost moving the second unit forward.
If the second combo point gave 250 bonus damage it would mean 650hp units would die in one less AP, and the 3 point combo would then deal +500 which would make the potion somewhat better.
I'd amend it slightly to:
Nerf Sniper damage at little (remember they only have 2, and usually waste a jarate to use the power effectively), increase medic health a little (they only have 2)
Increase Witch splash back up (they desperately need AoE)
Decrease Grenadier spash a little. And decrease engineer bubble range to 2/or remove Pally aura. Round down speed boost on tile.
DE - start Wraith higher, with smaller gains to same upper limit.
Shaolin - increase Monk range to 3. Increase poisoner health/or allow combos between turns (balance losing 1 combo point per turn).
Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
Sorry. Although these are credible ideas, this time I will emphasize what I meant to be the most important part of my post, which is this:
Make a maximum of one simple balance adjustment per team per app update.
If RE makes a bunch at a time then a lot of what players think they know, breaks. Learned formations and manuevers don't work anymore, calculations have to be recalculated... and players get frustrated and wonder if Outwitters is all that bad.
I'll talk about the merits of the specific example balance adjustments in a future post.
Regarding the initial Wraith HP buff: this might actually be of a slight disadvantage to the DE against the Shaolin. The Monk reduces a unit's max HP by 25% of its original value. So increasing the Wraith initial HP will increase the HP deduction by the Monk without helping the Wraith in the long term.
That could be acceptable, as a specific buff to Shaolin vs DE. Or, Wraith could be given the ability to feed by spawning on top of a unit instead of the suggested increased starting health.
Actually, I wouldn't say it's that much of a disadvantage.
The current Wraith loses 165 of its max HP (650/4 = 162.5, rounded up). A Wraith with 800 initial HP will lose 200, so that's a difference of 35.
However, the Wraith will also gain 80 HP from each Soulstone/Helm, instead of 65. So it'll be gain a total of 160 HP instead of 130, with a difference of 30.
Overall, an upgraded Wraith loses 5 HP in the long run, which is kind of a moot point when 800 starting HP is so much more beneficial. Even against Shaolin, a 650 HP Wraith can be 3HKO'd by a Poisoner and 2HKO'd by a Runemetaled Poisoner; an 800 HP Wraith cannot.
That could be acceptable, as a specific buff to Shaolin vs DE. Or, Wraith could be given the ability to feed by spawning on top of a unit instead of the suggested increased starting health.
I have always wanted the wraith to have this ability, i think it would make the DE super unit par with the abilities and usefulness of the other teams supers and still be balanced with a buff like this. Spawning, moving, and eating the fallen unit is such an ap wasting hassle for competitive play i rarely get the wraith built enough to do much, usually i just use him to stomp after a unit trade in my favor as to leave them with the option to take the attacking unit or the wraith if they can't kill both on their turn.
I agree with Adazaa's list, except for the DE. 225 phantoms would be an extremely huge buff and im really not for it. DE only need a very small minor buff. I'd instead make the Wraith start at 800 life. Leave the spirits as-is, they are already very effective at what they do (block LoS, force waisted AP, threaten crystals/tiles, used for further stomping when you can send one in deep)
DE: There seems to be a lot of support for increasing Wraith starting health - but I am not feeling it. In my DE games already, Wraith is a decisive figure very much of the time, and I am talking largely about my wins. Many, maybe even most, of my DE wins have been getting a big wraith and chewing up the field. Granted maybe not against top players, but that why top players are top players. I shouldn't expect one easy strategy to allow me to beat top players.
Again, all the DE units are effective and threatening individually. Maybe the least threatening is Necro, but that ranged stomp is pretty cool.
225 phantoms would mean unimproved hitters would need 2 hits to get rid of them. I choose 225 instead of 205 so paladin-assisted dwarves wouldn't get another boost.
But ok. You don't like that idea --Check out my new one.
My new list:
Again. My goal is one simple adjustment per team.
- Nerf Sniper range to 6. (Forcing them into harm's way if they want to reach the back.)
- Increase Witch splash a little.
- Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
- Shaolin: I still believe in Eayopa. Combo aura persists longer than the turn.
- DE: The green smoke potion (whatever its called), does more damage and rezzes units higher.
- Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
My new list:
Again. My goal is one simple adjustment per team.
- Nerf Sniper range to 6. (Forcing them into harm's way if they want to reach the back.)
- Increase Witch splash a little.
- Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
- Shaolin: I still believe in Eayopa. Combo aura persists longer than the turn.
- DE: The green smoke potion (whatever its called), does more damage and rezzes units higher.
- Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
New order of business. We have a motion on the floor.
Adaza has proposed a List of First Incremental Changes for approval by the committee.
I second the motion and recommend we approve the list as is.
Let's bring it to a vote. All in favor say "Aye."
Aye
My new list:
Again. My goal is one simple adjustment per team.
- Nerf Sniper range to 6. (Forcing them into harm's way if they want to reach the back.)
- Increase Witch splash a little.
- Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
- Shaolin: I still believe in Eayopa. Combo aura persists longer than the turn.
- DE: The green smoke potion (whatever its called), does more damage and rezzes units higher.
- Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
New order of business. We have a motion on the floor.
Adaza has proposed a List of First Incremental Changes for approval by the committee.
I second the motion and recommend we approve the list as is.
Let's bring it to a vote. All in favor say "Aye."
Disagree :)
I'm just trying - in an entertaining fashion - to see how we might be approaching a consensus around here.
I know there is a separate topic trying to consolidate the most popular ideas for Shaolin buffing.
I think what is needed is a reconciling the dominant themes and give 2-3 option for each in a one-stop-shopping list for Robot to find and review when they decide to ever visit their forums again. One place with distilled wisdom. Kinda like Martin Luther and his 95 theses he nailed to the door of the Castle Church of Wittenberg.
A new Topic is obviously in order, but one that should remain unblemished by the rehashing arguments for old ideas, or proffering new ideas, or variants of existing ones.
Let's get our act together and hope that the Robots follow by example.
What about increasing combo damage? At the moment it's 400 damage (+200) for the second combo point, which means where base units are concerned it offers no bonus whatsoever on the attack as it just cancels out the 200dmg attack lost moving the second unit forward.
If the second combo point gave 250 bonus damage it would mean 650hp units would die in one less AP, and the 3 point combo would then deal +500 which would make the potion somewhat better.
I like this idea. +1
My new list:
Again. My goal is one simple adjustment per team.
- Nerf Sniper range to 6. (Forcing them into harm's way if they want to reach the back.)
- Increase Witch splash a little.
- Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
- Shaolin: I still believe in Eayopa. Combo aura persists longer than the turn.
- DE: The green smoke potion (whatever its called), does more damage and rezzes units higher.
- Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
I disagree with your key concept of only having one change per team. There is no need for such a restriction. You might as well say, change only 1 team at a time.
Secondly, nerfing sniper to range 6 is far too big a nerf. It removes his USP.
The Tribe need serious AoE, so a moderate boost not a small one is needed. Tribe is currently useless.
Dwarves need a little more than that nerfed. Should also restrict bubble range to 2.
I still say this is better:
Nerf Sniper damage at little (they only have 2, and usually waste a jarate to use the power effectively), increase medic health a little (they only have 2)
Increase Witch splash back up (they desperately need AoE)
Decrease Grenadier spash a little. And decrease engineer bubble range to 2 (or remove Pally aura). Round down speed boost on tile.
DE - start Wraith higher, with smaller gains to same upper limit, or I agree with your green potion buff idea as an alternative.
Shaolin - increase Monk range to 3. Increase poisoner health/or allow combos between turns (losing 1 combo point per turn).
as i have said EVERY SINGLE POST SINCE SHAOLIN WAS ADDED TO HERO ACADEMY...Robot messed up big time with this team, and really hurt the game...and no way would Robot ever admit that this team is completely useless...Shaolin would need a MASSIVE buff in order to be able to compete in league play...because the biggest flaw of the team is the "combo" ability...which is "their thing", its what makes them a worthwhile team...without the combo thing they're just another boring team...the problem is, the combo ability is no suitable for Hero Academy playstyle...Robot messed up big time and I am REALLY happy that the statistics prove it
Oh really? I recall a post of yours that said something about calling people fat and saying that they are losers with no lives. Ring a bell? ;)
Now if you dont mind, you can stop tooting your own horn and read what everyone else is writing. We ALL know that the shalion need a buff. Plus you are over-exaggerating their weakness a bit. :)
Successfully scaled back my game count, resuming normal play. :)
I'll be back to helping train new players when school gets out. :)