Successfully scaled back my game count, resuming normal play. :)
I'll be back to helping train new players when school gets out. :)
I think the combo bonus is great. And the fact that they require team synergy makes them unique. They just need some buffs to make the team bonus work.
attacking them is tough because they get easier combos on defense. Exception being if you can range stomp. Because TF2 gets a bonus AP for stomping it also gives them an inherent advantage over SL because they can stomp and then run away to avoid cross-fire or Shadow retaliation conversion... (Making TF2 inherently better powered vs. SL just because of their team bonus).
but I regress. What I mean is, they need buffs that allow them to be a nice semi-offensive, semi-defensive team so that they are not a turtle team like dwarves but still rely on slow gradual team/group positions pressing forward. Clearly their vulnerability to AOE is the main issue to making this strategy work at the moment.
Oh yes, it's not just one factor why tf2 is doing well vs all teams, and especially vs Shaolin. I was just pointing out that because tf2 gets a bonus move, Shaolin can't do a turtle defense vs tf2 at all. Tf2 just stomp and move 1 away, which makes it no longer possible to combo in retaliation easily.
tf2 has weaknesses, but the problem is that tf2s strengths match exactly tf2s weaknesses... So it's an especially hard balance to accommodate for. You'd think squishy means you can shadow convert them, but the bonus AP they get for a stomp prevents that.
Meanwhile their excessively high attack powers and lots of AOE damage, plus the snipper and spy... Well the combination is just brutal for Shaolin. I'm at the point where I feel dwarves a bit easier to beat, cause you need to worry only about tripple-buffed grenadiers (gunner) and annahilators. Whereas with TF2 you have to worry about 8 guys and they can respawn 2 of them. With dwarves at least you can dragon+bamboo kill a buffed dwarf and then get some peace for a second. With tf2 far more of their units are offensive and 6 of them do AOE damage...
If tf2 and DW get an overall reduction in splash damage, it would help to make them less anti-Shaolin, while at the same time making them less overall strong vs the other teams too. But with tf2 I'd still also reduce snipper damage a bit so you can't 1-shot jarrate kill anything you want, and also reduce the medics self heal to 0 or 25%... Forcing them to keep offensive and making hits count. (Or reduce base attack of medic to 150 from 200). But I do realize that a number of people here disagree, even though I think it would be a great way to ensure that the team stays aggressive and never us allowed to go too passive.
They can add attack upgrades to all their guys if left alone, nullifying DE health upgrades; which is another reason they do well vs DE. So limiting their healing would really stop them from being able to wait on their side of the board while doing comprehensive upgrades to all their guys and waiting for you to attack them and waist your scrolls... Less tf2 healing, less AOE damage (grenader splash decrease, heavy splash decrease, and make the flamer do only 75% to second tile), lower the snipper damage so you can't get over 900 with jarrate... That would rebalance tf2.
Oh 20/20 1440 heavy, you so crazy. Oh 450 to two target pyro you so crazy.
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Every so often people forget that you have dragons when they go for a risky stomp, or sometimes they suicide to take out a high value target. Boom converts in a safe location
Well, I just don't see why the tf2 is rushing vs Shaolin. You hold the middle of the board, and you mill them to death with AOE. Wait for them to attack you. That's how you beat Shaolin as tf2. If you can do damage to the crystal at the same time, then great, but the focus currently is on using AOE with spy/snipper/jarate/flamer threat to make counter attacks painful/impossible.
as for my changes being potentially too many, I don't have the stats so I can't give a final proposal package. I also can't test proposed changes. But I do think tf2 and dwarves are at the top, and I do stand by my thoughts that they both need to do less splash damage, not only for Shaolin, but also compared to all other teams. I don't see how lowering their splash would make them suddenly the worst teams when they are currently the best ones.
im all for progressive changes, I'd have to know how robots works on this. If they do 1 balance patch a month, then you could do very small incremental changes. If patches are only once every 3 months, you want to do a bigger change (equals exactly what you think it should be) so that you can see if it was correct or not, and if oh went "over" the balance point, you can just look at the stats to see how far over you went.
if the team was winning 40% of the time, and now 55% of the time, and you did 3 changes, probably one of them was too many. So in e next patch you can factor that in. Naturally it's all a network of changes and interactions, so you always need to isolate the issue as best as you can. Small precision changes that impact as specifically as possible are naturally the best kinds of changes.
I would like to see balance changes come a maximum of one per team at a time. Makes it easy to remember and doesn't break a lot of existing knowledge.
Nerf Sniper damage
Increase Witch splash a little.
Decrease Grenadier spash a little.
Make phantoms 225 hp. No stomping needed, still. I'm kind of serious. My reasoning: All DE units are perfect. But as a team, they need a little help.
Don't touch Council. Its the reference team.
If we have multiple patches as a way to get balance, then I'm all for small changes. If Shaolin can only get one change (but I honestly think they need at least two...) then it would have to be a buff to the monk so that its at least useful for something other than a
(which honestly doesn't do the bamboo justice since it can range stomp and the monk has to walk on over to do the same...)
I agree with Adazaa's list, except for the DE. 225 phantoms would be an extremely huge buff and im really not for it. DE only need a very small minor buff. I'd instead make the Wraith start at 800 life. Leave the spirits as-is, they are already very effective at what they do (block LoS, force waisted AP, threaten crystals/tiles, used for further stomping when you can send one in deep)
Regarding the initial Wraith HP buff: this might actually be of a slight disadvantage to the DE against the Shaolin. The Monk reduces a unit's max HP by 25% of its original value. So increasing the Wraith initial HP will increase the HP deduction by the Monk without helping the Wraith in the long term.
What about increasing combo damage? At the moment it's 400 damage (+200) for the second combo point, which means where base units are concerned it offers no bonus whatsoever on the attack as it just cancels out the 200dmg attack lost moving the second unit forward.
If the second combo point gave 250 bonus damage it would mean 650hp units would die in one less AP, and the 3 point combo would then deal +500 which would make the potion somewhat better.
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Post about the topic, give an opinion or what have you. Don't tell people what to do with their lives and critique their character, you aren't their therapist. Fancy language and pompous remarks makes you look like a fool. Use this site for what it was made for, to talk about the game, not judge each other.
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I'm just trying - in an entertaining fashion - to see how we might be approaching a consensus around here.
I know there is a separate topic trying to consolidate the most popular ideas for Shaolin buffing.
I think what is needed is a reconciling the dominant themes and give 2-3 option for each in a one-stop-shopping list for Robot to find and review when they decide to ever visit their forums again. One place with distilled wisdom. Kinda like Martin Luther and his 95 theses he nailed to the door of the Castle Church of Wittenberg.
A new Topic is obviously in order, but one that should remain unblemished by the rehashing arguments for old ideas, or proffering new ideas, or variants of existing ones.
Let's get our act together and hope that the Robots follow by example.
I still say this is better:
Nerf Sniper damage at little (they only have 2, and usually waste a jarate to use the power effectively), increase medic health a little (they only have 2)
Increase Witch splash back up (they desperately need AoE)
Decrease Grenadier spash a little. And decrease engineer bubble range to 2 (or remove Pally aura). Round down speed boost on tile.
DE - start Wraith higher, with smaller gains to same upper limit, or I agree with your green potion buff idea as an alternative.
Shaolin - increase Monk range to 3. Increase poisoner health/or allow combos between turns (losing 1 combo point per turn).