Shaolin are 2-18 In League Play
What about having either their runemetal boost damage by 10% instead of 20%, but with the added effect of increasing combo damage by 50% and/or granting one additional combo point? This would both increase the effectiveness of the combo system and allow the shadow's stolen units to get in on the action.
I don't think this change would be enough on its own, but perhaps this combined with a tweak to the monk and maybe a (very slight) buff to survivability somewhere could do the trick.
No, no, you cant have 5 potions without re-writing the deck randomness rules, which robot doesnt want to do. I can see it now - -your starting hand is 1 taoist, 2 bamboo and 3 combo potions. You deploy the taoist, trade 1 bamboo and 3 potions, and get 2 combo potions and 3 shields. You trade that stuff and get 2 Dragons and 3 helmets. You trade that stuff and get 5 combo potions again. Good times.
Sure re-writing the bamboo= unit would help a little, but you just cant have 5 pots, 2 bamboo, 9 gears and 2 dragons, clogging the deck. With that much stuff, you could easily never see another unit unless you fully gear your starting 3.
you got a point there art :)
but still, TBK line of thought aint bad. If you build up the combo points, you wont really need high dmg units, runemetal and such stuff. Since unlike any other team all units gain bonus dmg. It would encourage people of always going for the combo point build up attack instead of how people are doing now more or less. Which is equipping runemetal on poisoner and only attacking with him. If you adjust his idea it could work brilliant.
No, no, you cant have 5 potions without re-writing the deck randomness rules, which robot doesnt want to do. I can see it now - -your starting hand is 1 taoist, 2 bamboo and 3 combo potions. You deploy the taoist, trade 1 bamboo and 3 potions, and get 2 combo potions and 3 shields. You trade that stuff and get 2 Dragons and 3 helmets. You trade that stuff and get 5 combo potions again. Good times.
Sure re-writing the bamboo= unit would help a little, but you just cant have 5 pots, 2 bamboo, 9 gears and 2 dragons, clogging the deck. With that much stuff, you could easily never see another unit unless you fully gear your starting 3.
I'm NOT suggesting an increase in the number of items in the deck. You would replace the runemetals with potions (and/or a bamboo). This would not change the number of units that you see in any given hand. In my opinion, a runemetal in your hypothetical opening hand is just as much clutter as a potion.
If you build up the combo points, you wont really need high dmg units, runemetal and such stuff. Since unlike any other team all units gain bonus dmg. It would encourage people of always going for the combo point build up attack instead of how people are doing now more or less. Which is equipping runemetal on poisoner and only attacking with him. If you adjust his idea it could work brilliant.
Exactly!
This also solves a problem that I know Art has complained about in another thread: how do you decide which shaolin unit to give the runemetal? ;-)
Sure re-writing the bamboo= unit would help a little, but you just cant have 5 pots, 2 bamboo, 9 gears and 2 dragons, clogging the deck. With that much stuff, you could easily never see another unit unless you fully gear your starting 3.
It would be 6 gear and so it will not add more items but different number of items. And I know 1 extra bamboo which is currently not an item.
But I must agree that it might be too much with 5 of the same items, even though I like the idea.
Well even if the extra combo potions replace runemetal, combo potions are harder to use and thus more of a deck clogger. You cant simply stick a combo potion on a poisoner on the deploy tile and assume it will work out, as this will deprive your poisoner of a "spread the poison around" initial approach. You more or less can just stick runemetal on a poisoner. Sure, you might prefer to wait for your gear, but you can easily do it without much loss if you have too. Its different.
Its similar to how bamboo is more of a deck clogger than gear -- its harder to use appropriately. Not such a big deal, as there are only two. But with the extra potions, you would have a lot of high clog factor items.
I'll take the harder-to-use aspect of the combo potions in exchange for a more dynamic team. Four or five potions just does not seem like a big deck clogger. It would be kind of like the tribe with their four meats. Besides, getting bad draws and having to exchange is a part of the game.
I'll take the harder-to-use aspect of the combo potions in exchange for a more dynamic team. Four or five potions just does not seem like a big deck clogger. It would be kind of like the tribe with their four meats. Besides, getting bad draws and having to exchange is a part of the game.
Four meats vs 5 potions and 2 bamboo may not seem like a big difference, but in practice I think it would be a major problem.
I could go with adding a 3rd potion as part of an integrated buff to the team -- 2 is really paltry, considering they are your heal and your scroll.
I could go with adding a 3rd potion as part of an integrated buff to the team -- 2 is really paltry, considering they are your heal and your scroll.
Four potions, but that is my final offer. You can keep all three runemetals as long as the monk and winblade are buffed to make it easier to achieve combos. Do we have a deal? ;-)
It doesnt matter if its 2 or 5. The main goal should be TBK's idea, removing runemetal from those poisoners and encourge going for the combopoint. adjustments can always be made so it doesnt clogg up your deck etc :)
I'm with Hiruma and TBK on this. A six-pack of pots would make this team like the Cirque du Soleil of Hero Academy - a very dynamic team and entertaining to watch. The whole idea of their theme is to work together and combo - this facilitates it and discourages the buffed-poisoner trend. And it also addresses the healing deficit (or the looming Physical Cliff as I like to topically label it)
And Bamboo on deck is just like a Drill or Inferno as far as deck dynamics go.
Well, I'm with Art. The combo potions are nice, but nowhere near the long-term value of a runemetal. And Bamboo, for all it's utility, still cannot deal damage -- how can you compare it to a Drill? If you don't have any damage-dealers on the board, Bamboo is useful only as an emergency defensive stopgap (which is to say, not very useful).
The potion issue is distracting the main point of trading runemetals for more combos.
The potion issue is distracting the main point of trading runemetals for more combos.
he didnt read that i said i dont care if its 2 or 5 :)
if the combo points gets up and working, so will they more dmg boost more times than you would get from a single scroll.
The potion issue is distracting the main point of trading runemetals for more combos.
Its not just the number of potions, its what the potions do. They make combos more damaging, they dont make them easier to pull off. Not one stich.
So I dont really see where the combo potion means more combos. A better tact to promote combos might be to change what the combo potion actually does. For example, "when buffed unit attacks a target with 1 or more combo points, the action does not cost an AP " would actually promote combos. I dont know if it would be balanced, but you could even have it be so that you get AP refunded if attacking a target with 2 or 3 combo points (i.e. 1 or 2 ap refunded, attack is still free).
I can see both arguments here, more combo potions would help healing and also promote getting to a triple-combo (when the bonus really starts to add up). I also worry that removing runemetal will be a serious blow, I'd rather have two rune metal, two bamboo and two combo potions than any other number/combination of it. It's a lot better to get one bamboo, one rune metal and one combo potion in your hand than 3 combo potions. More diverse consumables means more choices to adapt to different situations. A combo potion, when I'm already healed, costs 1ap to deploy and buffs by only 200 damage... So it's a net useless action. You have to heal at the same time OR get a third combo in to make it pay back.., very circumstantial.
I like Arts Idea that the first 2-combo grants a free AP and the first 3 combo grants another bonus AP (4 combos in a turn?)... If we made that change and just made the monk move 3 (so that the unit isn't useless compared to the others, it really needs something extra), then I think the team might already be very close to balanced.
I worry that the free AP from more combo points could make the Shaolin pretty unbalanced, especially on defense. Pretty much anything that comes to attack the Shaolin will die if combos become that much easier to pull off. I'd definitely support more movement or ranged attack for some units, but I think the AP think has a big chance of making the Shaolin too powerful. What about if combos were sustained? As in, you could attack multiple times with the same unit and preserve the combo. So for example, a poisoner attacks for 200 damage, then a windblade can attack for 400 on the combo'd unit for the rest of the turn. The 2x combo is only 400 damage, so I don't think it'd be OP (espeically considering a runed archer is 450 damage and easier to pull off), but I think it would make the Shaolin much more aggressively viable without leaving them too prone to turtling (as you'll have a good few units on your half of the board anyway, so why would you preserve the combo rather than attacking with a new unit to increase it?). Thoughts?
I worry that the free AP from more combo points could make the Shaolin pretty unbalanced, especially on defense. Pretty much anything that comes to attack the Shaolin will die if combos become that much easier to pull off. I'd definitely support more movement or ranged attack for some units, but I think the AP think has a big chance of making the Shaolin too powerful. What about if combos were sustained? As in, you could attack multiple times with the same unit and preserve the combo. So for example, a poisoner attacks for 200 damage, then a windblade can attack for 400 on the combo'd unit for the rest of the turn. The 2x combo is only 400 damage, so I don't think it'd be OP (espeically considering a runed archer is 450 damage and easier to pull off), but I think it would make the Shaolin much more aggressively viable without leaving them too prone to turtling (as you'll have a good few units on your half of the board anyway, so why would you preserve the combo rather than attacking with a new unit to increase it?). Thoughts?
I was only suggesting a change to the combo potion mrwho. Shaolin would still get many fewer free ap than TF2.
Its not just the number of potions, its what the potions do. They make combos more damaging, they dont make them easier to pull off. Not one stich.
So I dont really see where the combo potion means more combos. A better tact to promote combos might be to change what the combo potion actually does. For example, "when buffed unit attacks a target with 1 or more combo points, the action does not cost an AP " would actually promote combos. I dont know if it would be balanced, but you could even have it be so that you get AP refunded if attacking a target with 2 or 3 combo points (i.e. 1 or 2 ap refunded, attack is still free).
Agreed. As far as I am concerned, you could just make them normal potions. The main idea is shifting the offense from runemetaled units to combos attacks.
Its not just the number of potions, its what the potions do. They make combos more damaging, they dont make them easier to pull off. Not one stich.
So I dont really see where the combo potion means more combos. A better tact to promote combos might be to change what the combo potion actually does. For example, "when buffed unit attacks a target with 1 or more combo points, the action does not cost an AP " would actually promote combos. I dont know if it would be balanced, but you could even have it be so that you get AP refunded if attacking a target with 2 or 3 combo points (i.e. 1 or 2 ap refunded, attack is still free).
Agreed. As far as I am concerned, you could just make them normal potions. The main idea is shifting the offense from runemetaled units to combos attacks.
A very easy way to do that, is to leave everything the way it is now, and to just increase the combo damage. If the combo damage were 250 or 300 it would be really worth it to move that extra guy forward. I wouldn't remove the runemetal though. If the combo potion gets a buff, I think it should be that while you glow-blue, you gain some temporary armor.
Oh and if you wanted combo potions to give a free AP, just make deploying the combo potion "free" and not cost an AP :-)
Much simpler than saying "if buffed and you attack and you get at least one combo then...", and nearly the same result.
What if (going out on a limb here) there were 2 (or more) different kinda of potions? Maybe a blue and a green, blue is +combo & +move, green is +resist & +dmg? There could be a purple or red one too. Just to toss ideas around. :)
Is giving shaolin a huge arsenal of Potions really a good idea? I think an alchemist team in the future could do this and work out well but shaolin is not meant to be a potion based team, giving them all these potions is basically changing their entire theme fairly dramatically. I agree that shaolin should be more focused on comboing, but the way that hero academy is played makes attacking wih a large variety of units usually ineffective, even if the combo damage is buffed, so I'm not sure that is the best course of action.
It was just a random idea that I thought of. (I'll blame the Zelda games) I agree though that it would be better suited to a new team. :)
What if runemetal was replaced with a combo-oriented gear? Say, +20% attack (runemetal is 50%), and +100x combo damage? I don't know, those numbers are almost surely not balanced, but the idea is just a sword that's less powerful solo, but helps combos. Another idea would be giving the new combo-weapon the combo-potion attributes: adds +1 combo point on attack. Don't know what to do with Shaolin's potion in that case though.
Or the combo-weapon could allow one unit to contribute 2 attacks to a combo. Similar to the potion, but it would take 2 attacks.
I'm a bit worried that combo buffs could push SL over the top. I think Trip dissected them very well. AoE is a main concern, a huge one, both giving and receiving. And I'm not sure combo power help them in that regard, if you have to move forward your entire army to kill the AoE guy, just to keep yourself all clumped up and open to some more AoE is kind of nonsense. And that's the thing, you have a team that's so vulnerable to something and yet to make the best of your strengths you have to make yourself even more vulnerable to that. Low range, low movement makes the combos difficult to pull off, except for the Shadow, but being so dependent of the special unit could be another problem.
I get all of that, but if we buff the combos too much, we take the risk of making them too strong. As Trip said, SL start very slow, but when they are set and the Shadow is out, then they don't feel thaaat underpowered. They just feel really weak against SL since all you do is countered. Well, against Dwarves too, but what team doesn't feel like that against Dwarves?
I like the potion idea, but the clogging hand could be a real problem. It happens from time to time with the Tribe, I guess it would happen to the SL if too many potions/bamboos are in deck. In my mind I prefer to have swords, but in reality I don't think the runemetals have been decisive in any of my SL matches, although most of them have been against other SL teams.
Not trying to hate on your idea or anything :), I just mean increasing the emphasis on potions by replacing equipment with them might be mistake, although a team with a huge arsenal of potions and a racial involving potions could be a cool (but unlikely) idea IMO.
as i have said EVERY SINGLE POST SINCE SHAOLIN WAS ADDED TO HERO ACADEMY...Robot messed up big time with this team, and really hurt the game...and no way would Robot ever admit that this team is completely useless...Shaolin would need a MASSIVE buff in order to be able to compete in league play...because the biggest flaw of the team is the "combo" ability...which is "their thing", its what makes them a worthwhile team...without the combo thing they're just another boring team...the problem is, the combo ability is no suitable for Hero Academy playstyle...Robot messed up big time and I am REALLY happy that the statistics prove it
I still think the problem with the team is having to use AP to move, and as a result having to spread the combo over two turns, while leaving several units in a dangerous position. In the other thread I suggested a "team charge" item/spell, but I want to add another idea: a "free move spell" that does not cost an AP to deploy. That way you can move up two units in one less AP, giving you one more hit on the subject, or a stomp, or a retreat. I wouldn't want a teleport-anywhere-you-want spell, because that would be undefendable, but just a "make one free move" consumable. It needs to be consumable, because otherwise I'd say it would be too easy to abuse turn after turn after turn.
Combo potion could also do with a buff. Either because combo damage is increased to 250 ot 300, or indirectly by giving the blue-aura an actual armor effect while casted... say 20% magical and 20% physical armor while you hold the blue aura. It would then also help to get and hold a position, and to keep a unit alive until it could really unleach a good combo.
:-)