Real or Not - Shaolin v. Dark Elves
Oddly, Shaolin are 14-16 verses Dark Elves. If this is real, and not some statistical fluke, Shaolin are much stronger against the Dark Elves than other teams which are still hammering Shaolin. If its real, Shaolin can be buffed to the degree necessary without giving them the edge in the DE match-up.
I dont really understand how this could be real. Shaolin have more magical damage than physical, DE are strong in magic defense, and DE potentially have high health units with life leach that I would think would be really hard to kill without a traditional scroll.
I am inclined to vote "not" and believe that the record will deteriorate to be more similar to the record verse other teams.
I think the statistics might be on to something here. I have also had a couple close DE vs Shaolin matches, whereas other match-ups vs Shaolin have seemed much more unbalanced.
Yes, the wraith can be be a lot easier to feed vs Shaolin compared to other teams, but the wraith's usefulness is signifiantly mitigated once fully grown due to the inability to leave him close to the front lines. The classic wraith manuever is to swoop in from across the board (2 moves), knock out 1 unit (2 hits) , and then retreat 3 tiles so that on your next move you will be 1 move away from at least 1 unit (hopefully more) to perform a proper eat and escape. Against shaolin, once you get hit by a monk it is very hard to do this with sworded poisoners around. The threat of a bamboo stomp is real. In a real game, this forced my wraith to be usually 2 moves away from key targets which was pretty useless. Ultimately I just sacrificed him to trade for a +3 poisoner to move the game along. The wraith is powerful, but with no AOE abilities he is manageable for Shaolin to defend against.
This same dynamic extends to other DE players, namely the imp and monk, who thrive on being "unkillable" and playing up close and personal. Shaolin does great against this type of play style with its poisoning and HP reductions.
In general, Shaolin is defeated by AOE and so the void monk really becomes the lynchpin of an effective strategy. The problem is that the monks AOE has a hard time getting at the back lines, so it becomes easier for Shaolin to protect healers (their weakness).
Compare DE against the Shaolin match-up for other teams:
Council -- Wizard AOE that can extend 3 rows back (hurt healers); inferno bombs can be devastating compared to soulblasts; Archer 3-range compared to imp 2-range keeps archers safe; Ninja is one of the only characters that can own a Shadow in 1 move. In general, a clean AOE game (+3 wizards plus strategic infernos) devastates Shaolin much like it can to TF2.
Dwarf -- +3 grenadier. No further comment required.
Tribe -- Tidal waves are the kryptonite of shaolin because you can meaningfully engage the front line without worrying about big combo attacks. + witch corpse explosions and it is easy to wittle down a helpless Shaolin army. Also, go ahead and pick-off one of my front line guys with your Shadow. My enraged Chieftan will come blazing in and KO half your army at one. With no scrolls, you probably won't have a chance to kill him first.
TF2 -- You might as well resign now.
DE rely, more than the other teams, on single, highly buffed units, which are made "unkillable". There is no such thing as "unkillable" against SL, especially if the unit is left deep in SL territory. =)
Shadow and monks are nigh-unkillable with DE, except with sworded imps (and even then, shadows are not a one hit kill with scroll). The generally low burst damage and middling AOE damage means that DE can't take out threats. A poisoner may look squishy to you, but with helm and shield, needs 4 hits from a 300 unit. That's generally undoable without a lot of setting up.
Resists mean nothing against the poisoner and combos - VMs lose a lot of their durability once poisoned. Even a high resist unit cannot stand against combos, which mean that dives are not possible.
Marginally higher HP means nothing against monk/poisoner.
The only thing saving DE from this match is the exceedingly poor attacking ability of SL - in all the SL vs DE games that I played, I was able to get a very very strong midgame position, most of the time limiting DE to the back 2 rows. But I was never able to break in, especially with the bamboo bug, as shadows just keep the meat fresh for the wraith. So in all my games, I mostly lost in the endgame. If I could do this having only really played SL on the side, I have no doubt that an SL specialist, or just a better player than me, could have a very good match against DE.
Also, called it from the beginning! =D
Agreed, I don't think you need to look much further than inviability of "immortal" Void Monks against Shaolin.
Having thought about it, Shaolin *does* have more tools to take out high health VMs, particularly 1081+ VMs than say, Council. But DE has more tools to trade off poisoners, and should be fine if they arent putting all their eggs in a small number of baskets. I guess DE players are used to trying to build the super-units.
Anyway, I think DE should still be fine with the modest buffs to the Shaolin we have proposed.
Having thought about it, Shaolin *does* have more tools to take out high health VMs, particularly 1081+ VMs than say, Council. But DE has more tools to trade off poisoners, and should be fine if they arent putting all their eggs in a small number of baskets. I guess DE players are used to trying to build the super-units.
Anyway, I think DE should still be fine with the modest buffs to the Shaolin we have proposed.
+3 VM, monk + poisoneer + shadow/Dragon
Take VM heal and +3
High Hp unit with Leach life and higher resists because of shield.......
Shaolin thrives on taking units which can heal themselves.....
I would agree that DE are much easier to beat than Council. And that Dwarves and TF2 are the worst possible matchups (to the point of it being unplayable if you are even-skilled), but I would actually agrue that Tribe are an easier match for Shaolin than DE.
Out of all my Shaolin games I have yet to loose against Tribe, granted not all games are the same and they were not league games, so I can't say if the levels were actually comparable, but Tribe is easily defeated by a patient and cautious SL player. The key is to not let the Tidal waves kill your key units. In one match I even used Bamboo placement as a way to protect my healer and poisoner from tidal waves by giving them a "cuschion" in the same row as where they were located.
If Tribe goes "deep" with Chieftan or axethrowers you can get away with converting them because giving Tribe anger and getting a unit in the process is totally worth it. If Tribe wan'ts to keep swapping units and I keep getting Tribe unit conversions out of the process it is not going to be a fairy tale ending for the tribe player.
The key is to NOT loose the Shadow and to protect your Poisoners and healers as much as possible.
As for the DE, your only real threat is the VM, and they can be -very- hard to kill if buffed, but because they have a pattern you can build around, you can eventually break them down if you have Monks and/or Poisoners. I've had matches where they just pummeled me into a corner by two +3 Vms. But after sacrificing a Monk and a Windblade I was able to weaken them enough that I could get a kill in on both of them, with the VMs gone, there isn't that much left that is all that scary in the DE team since, as stated, they lack ranged AOE damage and they can't leave units deep at risk of getting them converted. It isn't an easy match, and I think it is harder than vs. Tribe, but it is certainly winable, though alebeit not every time (probably less than 50/50 and in favor of DE in my opinion).
The new year is here! I hope a balance patch will come soon so I can un-mothball my account.
;-)
odd I think league statistics for shaolin vs TF2 are brutal to the Shaolin
Was playing as de against shaolin in Toty. Because it was impossible to do crystal damage or safely stomp anything I couldn't do anything. I got complacent and poisoner double dragon bamboo put an end to the only unit I had capable of killing anything. Then I tilted. It's not a fluke safe healers and the suicide status of leaving anything including a 1.1k monk in range of 1 sl unit means that they will slowly but surely get a ck on you.
I've done pretty well in my league games as SL vs DE. The best thing I've found about the matchup is the relative ease of stealing a void monk. People tend to keep them up front where you can kill them with the poisoner/dragon combo and then use the VM mobility to shuttle them to the back row for future healing and equipping. Of course I'm also currently unbeaten as SL vs TF2, so this may say more about the quality of player I've been facing than the matchup itself... : )
SL vs TF2 also league games?
I agree that if it is real, It is about VMs.
Dancing Void Monks: make the opponent spend all their damage consumables on the imps and the wraith and then dance VMs around inside the opponents camp--doesn't work with Shaolin because of progressive combo.
More basic that that: VMs have to get close to a tight group to do their damage. Getting close to a tight group of shaolin is suicide.
There's another dynamic that I am thinking of opening a thread about. I am wondering whether Tribe and Shaolin statistics are a little inflated because currently, as of the last few weeks, only people highly skilled with those teams are playing as those teams. (Of course by only I mean a much higher percentage.)
What do you think?
I've won two league games against TF2 as Shaolin and about 5 or so more against randoms, but as Adaza suggested I am probably better than the average Shaolin player since I've been stubbornly trying to master the team and only play as them ever since they came out.
Not only that, I think CL are artificially depressed, and DE artificially inflated as well (man, if you're still playing DE all the way from the beginning, you'd better be some good at it at least!)
DE rely, more than the other teams, on single, highly buffed units, which are made "unkillable". There is no such thing as "unkillable" against SL, especially if the unit is left deep in SL territory. =)
Shadow and monks are nigh-unkillable with DE, except with sworded imps (and even then, shadows are not a one hit kill with scroll). The generally low burst damage and middling AOE damage means that DE can't take out threats. A poisoner may look squishy to you, but with helm and shield, needs 4 hits from a 300 unit. That's generally undoable without a lot of setting up.
Resists mean nothing against the poisoner and combos - VMs lose a lot of their durability once poisoned. Even a high resist unit cannot stand against combos, which mean that dives are not possible.
Marginally higher HP means nothing against monk/poisoner.
The only thing saving DE from this match is the exceedingly poor attacking ability of SL - in all the SL vs DE games that I played, I was able to get a very very strong midgame position, most of the time limiting DE to the back 2 rows. But I was never able to break in, especially with the bamboo bug, as shadows just keep the meat fresh for the wraith. So in all my games, I mostly lost in the endgame. If I could do this having only really played SL on the side, I have no doubt that an SL specialist, or just a better player than me, could have a very good match against DE.
Also, called it from the beginning! =D
I believe tabby hit the nail on the head with regard to the Shaolin vs. DE matchup.
DE also has the wraith, the perfect counter to the Shadow.
I think it may be a fluke, but there's definitely something there. As DE I've beat Shaolin every time but many matches were very close and when positioned correctly, they are tough.
Perhaps Shaolin is exploiting DE's physical damage weakness with Windblade/Monk combos after Poisoner debuffs.