The Ratio of Crystal Kills VS Team K ...
Hello everyone,
Most of my wins are based on team kills. Only a very tiny amount of wins stem from destroying all enemy crystals.
Now I wanted this topic not only for getting to know the finesse of crystal hunting but to properly understand and document when to go for a crystal kill and when to focus on killing the team.
My main problem is, that I have a strong urge to rather go for units instead of crystals, because the threat is more imminent. Crystals are potentially wasted AP, because I don't advance my board. To remedy this understanding, I went to see what are deciding factors to focus on crystals and so far I came up with the following general factors:
- The team I play
- The team I play against
- The map
- The current state of the board
- Resources
These are the main general factors that determine a strategy. Now what I want to find out with the help of you guys is when exactly to go for the crystal route, when to go for the team route, or when to combine both.
Take the abovementioned factors and describe what these factors have to look like when you decide to go for the crystal kill:
- What Teams are your favorite for crystal hunting?
- What matchups make CKs shine?
- What maps are made for CK, which are not?
- When is the perfect time to go for the crystal instead of units?
- What units and items are necessary to go for the kill in your particular case?
Feel free to also discuss ongoing games or include screens of some interesting situations.
Follow-up questions:
- What ratio bewteen Crystal kills and team kills do you have?
- How do you defend against CK when you see your opponent goes this route?
- Do you feel that some teams are designated for one of the two win conditions or that every team can follow both routes? What team has the largest gap betwwen TK and CK?
With your input, this topic should prove helpful for new players as well as advanced players who want to further their game by learning from others. After all, it's all about the win or loss, so determing which path to follow goes a long way. :-)
I think the statistics of crystal kills vs team kills might obfuscate the important of crystal attacks. Often times good players use early crystal raids to pressure the opponent into doing something rash to defend crystals (like using a scroll to kill a non-rumemetal enemy or sacrificing men), which creates key disadvantages when the game morphs into a body game. In my experience, good players on crystal defense can usually force the game into a body kill situation, but it is often the early crystal game that defines who has better board positioning and asset allocation, and who will control the offensive tenor in the game.
That said, I find it's rarely a good idea to launch an all out crystal assualt early. That can leave you quickly outgunned. The most effective early crystal strategies invole AOE attacks where you are damaging both crystal and opponents together, and you force the opponent to make difficult choices (heal, bring out more assets or waste important offensive items.) Demoman, dwarf bomber, heavies, council wizard and void monks can do this pretty well in the right circumstances, especially in circumstances on maps where the attacker can both stand on an assault tile and attack crystals at the same time, so you get extra bang for your AP. This positioning allows an early crystal game to happen quickly without bringing out a whole army.
There are unique map/racial setups that one learns with experience -- like the dominance of a Tribe Chieftan on the map where both crystals can be attacked by him simultaneously from the opponent's sword tile, but as you said it is usually just assessing a number of factors and revising strategy accordingly.
I'm not surprised to learn that council and dwarves have the highest crystal win percentages. I view Tribe as more circumstantial (but deadly when circumstances arise), and TF2 can be very dependent on opening hand. With DE, I think I've only won by crystal smashing a small number of times (very late in the game), but I've often used a void monk to severely damage 1 or 2 crystals to keep the pressure on early. With their HP-based racial traits, DE is more about survival and durability than big attacks, so this makes sense.
I have the same tendency, to kill units because 1) they're more threatening and 2) it's just more INTERESTING to have interplay of heroes instead of "race to kill the crystal". As a result, I have learned the following:
It is always better to plan on a crystal kill.
Because of assault squares, no healing of crystals, and your crystals can't move to avoid damage, it is nearly always a safer and easier option to plan and aim for a crystal kill. This doesn't mean that you ignore your opponents' units (although a good/bad hand can put you in a position where you can't do anything about it in the first place, which is another 'lol' factor about this game), but rather that you use high-range abilities and AOE damage to do crystal damage WHILE doing incidental damage to your opponent's units, forcing him/her to spend time healing them instead of putting pressure on you.
If you do this properly, you can very easily find yourself in a position where the opponent's crystals are rapidly dying, OR where he/she is forced to burn consumables or sacrifice strong units to try and slow you down. The key here is to protect the unit you are using offensively to force the opponent to make a bad trade. If they are able to take out your crystal-killer, it is usually with a combination of equipment and consumables, and if they leave these units in your face for easy killing, then do so!
But never forget that your ultimate goal is to kill the crystal!
When you see opportunities to kill high-value units (healers, units with lots of equipment, super units left exposed, etc.) you should generally take advantage of the opportunity, but only if you can do so without trading an equally valuable unit for the target. Basically, make good trades wherever you can, bearing in mind the matchup (dwarves can almost not afford to use a drill on anything except a void monk from a dark elf opponent, for instance), but don't lose sight of the crystal kill.
In my opinion, this is a failing of the game, because "race to the crystal" is a non-strategy, and sometimes works even when you IGNORE the opponent's units and just zerg really hard, but the game is what it is.
A good way to learn how to kill crystals is to start playing games with that purpose. Start a bunch of randoms, save all your items that can hit crystals, get about 6 units on the board and in position to hit crystals at least twice with 5 actions, take one or two assault tiles, then start unloading and see what happens!
Maybe they should have named the game Crystal Kill Academy.
Or worse: Crystal Defense.
The game's devolved into Ancient War but with Crystals instead of Totem Poles.
Y'all know I jest, right?
Crystal attacks are a threat that causes a reaction. So if you just can't bust in, but you can set up a "more damage to crystal per turn than opponent" crystal haras, you take it and it will pressure the opponent to attack you. As stated by others, this can also be done by AOE haras.
Crystal attacks are a desperation, if you loose crucial guys, or you just lost your last medic, you can push for crystal kill and sometimes win that way.
Crystal attacks hapen if you get position, like TF2 gets a Heavy on the Crystal-bonus square in the middle of the map and can AOE the crystal and enemy guys at the same time. If that starts to happen, TF2 could switch to a full-on Crystal win push if you get enough circumstantial damage.
Often there is a decision point you can notice where one player decides to go for a Crystal Kill and the other player knows they can't win via Crystal kill faster than their opponent, so they become the defender going for a TKO.
Early advantages on Crystal Damage can set the stage for who can, or can't, go for a crystal kill. So if I have the opponent down 75% crystal health and I am still at 100% crystal life, it is unlikely my opponent will go for a Crystal kill at that point unless they have a serious positional/unit advamtage (but in that case, a TKO strategy might still be better).
I've seen sometimes someone get a unit advantage, only to then switch to a Crystal strategy, which is, IMHO a huge mistake. If you have a guy fully upgraded in deep enemy teritotory who can't be easily KO'd, you want to maintain dominance and sacrificing him to get some crystal damage is sacrificing the advantage you had.
BTW Shaolin are amazing crystal hunters, if you use bamboo drops on the crystal squares... very hard to kill a 1200 bamboo unit and also a raiding shaolin unit on the same turn. I've seen Shaolin be exceptionally good at a Crystal game, but interestingly not many people realize yet the full power of the versatile bamboo just yet... (range stomp, trigger trains, drop on crystal squares, deny enemy attack square... etc)
I go for the CK under these circumstances:
If my opponent outnumbers me, and it will be difficult to TK. It can also be when the opponent is turtling, then I start making plans to hit the crystals.
I never start out rushing the crystals, but an early and succesful push might end up with damaging the best defended crystals. The damage you can do here before the opponent gets his defenses up, can be well worth it. The best defended crystals are the ones in the back, and those close to an attack tile (if the two crystals are in the same row). The barbed crystals are an exception to this as it is difficult to make an early push against the crystals in the back, as well as enemies hidding here.
It is always a good strategy to take the boost tile(s) if possible, so your enemy does not get them and then you have the option of turning the match into a CK race.
Here is a few of my thought on the crystals:
I think the crystals adds a certain sense of urgency to the games that put pressure on the other team, when the crystals starts cracking.
Some of my best matches has been when my opponent has almost won on CK thus preesing me to counter his victory as well as come up with a way to get back into the match either by going after CK or TK.
Once I've done the hard work of getting a lead in body count, it feels too risky to let that slip away by hittting crystals.
I only ever go CR when I it is clear I am not going to win TKO. I have won a few (a crazy one with shaolin the other day...).
However, I have lost more to CR than I have won with CR. I think that means that if I am to become a better player I need to learn about crystal rushing. So basically I have the same questions as moonbear.
I think, therefore, I need to spend a couple weeks doing nothing but crystal rushing. That should give me a general concept of how many units it takes to do how much crystal damage. And that, should make me more confident in knowing when is a good time to stop trying to compete body count-wise and start hitting crystals.
I only ever go CR when I it is clear I am not going to win TKO. I have won a few (a crazy one with shaolin the other day...).
However, I have lost more to CR than I have won with CR. I think that means that if I am to become a better player I need to learn about crystal rushing. So basically I have the same questions as moonbear.
I think, therefore, I need to spend a couple weeks doing nothing but crystal rushing. That should give me a general concept of how many units it takes to do how much crystal damage. And that, should make me more confident in knowing when is a good time to stop trying to compete body count-wise and start hitting crystals.
At a certain point in the game, it can be worth it to start going for a crystal win even when you are able to win on TKO. It will often take less turns to kill the crystals, than waiting for your opponent to deploy his remaining units, for you to kill.
Once I've done the hard work of getting a lead in body count, it feels too risky to let that slip away by hittting crystals.
I only ever go CR when I it is clear I am not going to win TKO. I have won a few (a crazy one with shaolin the other day...).
However, I have lost more to CR than I have won with CR. I think that means that if I am to become a better player I need to learn about crystal rushing. So basically I have the same questions as moonbear.
I think, therefore, I need to spend a couple weeks doing nothing but crystal rushing. That should give me a general concept of how many units it takes to do how much crystal damage. And that, should make me more confident in knowing when is a good time to stop trying to compete body count-wise and start hitting crystals.
Exactly. Knowing when it is safe to switch to CR, is what I have no confidence in.
Exactly. Knowing when it is safe to switch to CR, is what I have no confidence in.
I think its harder to learn now, as the most eggregious crystal rushing maps have been fixed. In my opinion, you can play Tribe, TF2 or DE without any real thought of attacking the crystals, at least on most maps. Going for a crystal win can sometimes be good with these teams, and its a userful thing to know how to do, but its no longer something that you *must* be good at, if you are good at defense. However, you are still leaving too much of a weapon on the table if you dont have an aggressive mindset towards crystal with Dwarves or Council.
Sorry, but no one is going to write a book for you!
Council and Dwarves get the highest percentage of their wins from crystal kills in League play, with Dark Elves the lowest. The difference is very marked too -- Council and Dwarves are close to 50% crystal kills, no one else is close