Project: Build Consensus Balance Re ...
Tidal waves would be a pretty major change if added to Shaolin's deck...
It is interesting to note that looking at the League numbers, the second worst match up in the game, after Shaolin v. TF2, is Dark Elves v. TF2. Its a truly wretched match-up, and I dont think something minor like the respawn token change alone is going to touch it.
I think tidal waves fit much better with shaolin than they do with tribe. That change alone would change their position significantly. I doubt it would happen as to this point unique spells has been pretty common.
As far as warbaker's suggestion--curiously, combo hits being worth 400 always was exactly my intuition also. I hinted towards that at the end here, but didn't totally spell it out:
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Summary-Community-Balance-...
(I didn't spell out at the time that I was thinking 400, 400, 400, no longer increasing--it didn't seem important since a 3-combo happens so rarely)
People are right that turtling would be a problem. It actually is already kind of hard to attack into a hunkered-down Shaolin, particularly when the Shadow is back there.
Honestly if it were up to me I'd be at least contemplating ways to scrap the combo system and add more cool offensive synergies like Monk and Poisoner, which are working a lot better in real gameplay.
It is interesting to note that looking at the League numbers, the second worst match up in the game, after Shaolin v. TF2, is Dark Elves v. TF2. Its a truly wretched match-up, and I dont think something minor like the respawn token change alone is going to touch it.
Vindication~~~!!
Actually, after that discussion with Trip, I looked at my TF2 game again, and it does seem better than before. It may well be that the average player is playing the matchup wrong and getting their +3 units jarred..
I don't have any suggestions on how to improve that match, though. Nobody liked my jar nerf, and it did affect a lot more than just the DE match...
i was thinking about it though, and perhaps the problem is grenediers and the demo. No coincidence that the 2 teams with the lobbing action are on top of the heap - how about reverting to the old pattern of diagonals doing 25%? Or even less, like Annie. Then at least you could stand on the diagonal of your teammate without worring that you're making yourself too vulnerable.
As far as warbaker's suggestion--curiously, combo hits being worth 400 always was exactly my intuition also. I hinted towards that at the end here, but didn't totally spell it out:
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Summary-Community-Balance-...
(I didn't spell out at the time that I was thinking 400, 400, 400, no longer increasing--it didn't seem important since a 3-combo happens so rarely)
People are right that turtling would be a problem. It actually is already kind of hard to attack into a hunkered-down Shaolin, particularly when the Shadow is back there.
Honestly if it were up to me I'd be at least contemplating ways to scrap the combo system and add more cool offensive synergies like Monk and Poisoner, which are working a lot better in real gameplay.
Yeah, I was inspired to look at it this way from your post. Is turtling really such a concern? High damage combos are only strong against those squares which two units can reach, and if you make the poisoner range 2, you can't easily cover that many squares.
It feels sad to drop combos, but you may be right that, currenlty, debuff-then-kill is fun and pretty close to working, and combos aren't.
It's interesting how high damage combos and high mobility are inherently opposed. If you give units high mobility, then high damage combos make it too easy to prevent enemy advances. (Strictly speaking, all buffs are inherently opposed, but mobility & combos synergize unusually well.)
@ArtNJ (or anyone who wants to comment) --- what do you think is driving weakness of dark elves against tf2? Im still learning how to fight against tf2 but ive personally found DE to be better against them at least compared to tribe. Ive found impaler is more valuable against tf2 than against other matchups, and void monk is comparatively worse. The high number of 650 life units on the tf2 team also means that the soul harvest's 100 damage actually gains some utility as an offensive weapon, as 600 life is a sigificant threshold.
Few things I think--DE aren't crystal killers at all, so they have to have a game plan of beating TF2 in a war of attrition, which is hard. Most importantly though, DE's method of winning wars of attrition and getting TKO relies primarily on upgrades. In a lot of matchups DE has to carefully use various upgrades to set up a unit that's going to have a key influence on the board (often, hitting a certain HP threshold based on what threats there are). And Jarate just wreaks havoc on the whole operation.
Don't forget that engineers exist simply to wreck 805 hp and 905 hp units, and jars > +3 units.
Yet if you get jars out of the way a roiding vm or a fat wraith can literally kill everything with no concern for position because if you can't kill in 5ap you can't kill period. For that reason de can't really get buffed. Search your feelings you know it to be true
This is true, no lie.. Still, to get to that point might be beyond the abilities of most DE. You basically have to play at a disadvantage until the jars are one, and if you can't force TF to spend those jars, you just don't get to win.. On the other hand, TF just have to wait for the +3 (if the DE insists on making a +3) and jar kill it. I'm not sure if there's a solution for that other than to teach the world's DEs to play smarter.... :/
You can have 3 +3 units. There are 2 jars. As long as you play the game the same way a homophobe deals with communal showers you're golden. Just avoid dropping the soap.
not all +3 DE units are equally hard for TF2 to kill. Except for a VM or fully buffed wraith, what is there to worry about? So jar the +3 VMs if needed and find some other way to kill the other +3s. That is part of it I think, and of course spies are another. A buffed spy can two shot anything. Medic linked soldiers and pyros also factor into it.
I think DE is just kind of weak if super units can be dealt with. Unlike the Tribe, routine 905 type units are nothing to TF2.
Art, do you have the raw data from the league? Could you make it available? I'm really curious as to if skill level of the match shows a marked difference in the relative strengths of each team.
Art, do you have the raw data from the league? Could you make it available? I'm really curious as to if skill level of the match shows a marked difference in the relative strengths of each team.
Arent you a League member Tabby? There is an "export" option that is available to all members. You can probably make more out of the spreadsheet than I can.
Ehhh... I must be dum or something, but I don't see that option... >.>
Dark Elves vs TF2 feels a lot like Council vs TF2 only with fewer options.
In a head to head TKO both teams fair miserably. Between Jars, Spies, Sniper etc TF2 not only has amazing threat potential, but since they never depend on gear it is nearly impossible to trade on favorable terms unless you're manaing to KO more than one unit at a time.
At least a Council team has the chance of a CK or using their amaing reach to snipe both medics. Dark Elves are all about minimal board presence and heavily buffed units, two things that TF2 is comically over prepared for.
Rethinking how I use the wraith has helped against TF2. Scouts and spies are easy to eat- get a naked wraith fully fed and it can 2-shot most TF2 units just like a kitted wraith can. Make it jarate bait with Harvest and Mana buffs, and all the sudden you're looking at 4 supers vs 2 jars.
If you're finding Spires and Scouts easy to eat without losing the Wraith in return your opponent isn't positioning well. Until after the second meal they're still going to take four AP to eat, leaving your Wraith dangling out on the board to get picked off.
Do your opponents never dive with their spies and scouts? Is it not a common TF2 tactic to stomp with the scout and use the extra AP to develop or heal, leaving the scout in enemy territory to distract and buy time?
Also, against TF2 using a scroll to get your wraith going is not as bad an idea as it normally is, since they have so few durable units.
Not if there's a Wraith nearby that can feed on them. It not only costs you the scout (an under rated unit), but it grows the Wraith making it a two for one. Something pretty major would have to be gained elsewhere to make that a wise exchange.
Ehhh... I must be dum or something, but I don't see that option... >.>
Log into the db and you get most of the following options. I have one or two extra because of admin status, but I believe "Export result" is available and gives you the db in excell format:
Welcome artnj,
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It's a bit late to mention this given that the changes are already incoming, but is there a good reason the monk can only debuff one target at a time? This has the consequence that you have to remember what happened in order to properly analyze the game state, which strikes me as a nono for asynchronous games.
Engineer bubbles have the same problem, but the mechanic would be inherently broken without 1-to-1 correspondence between engineers and bubbles. I don't see why monks should make the same UI sacrifice that Engineers did.
mmmmm lets try..... ugh the data is not the most user friendly ID i'm guessing is the user ID .....T1 guessing it's team one with the 0-6 meaning the different teams ... which is which is another question....... round number of rounds the match lasted....
It's a bit late to mention this given that the changes are already incoming, but is there a good reason the monk can only debuff one target at a time? This has the consequence that you have to remember what happened in order to properly analyze the game state, which strikes me as a nono for asynchronous games.
Engineer bubbles have the same problem, but the mechanic would be inherently broken without 1-to-1 correspondence between engineers and bubbles. I don't see why monks should make the same UI sacrifice that Engineers did.
Monks going round creating a 25% debuff on all enemy units would be pretty OP. I agree with it sticking to one. However, as I have seen somewhere before, it would be nice to have some visual method determining which bubble/debuff belongs to which unit. A simple colour coded triangle, or something like that, above each corresponding unit's heads, would suffice.
It's a bit late to mention this given that the changes are already incoming, but is there a good reason the monk can only debuff one target at a time? This has the consequence that you have to remember what happened in order to properly analyze the game state, which strikes me as a nono for asynchronous games.
Engineer bubbles have the same problem, but the mechanic would be inherently broken without 1-to-1 correspondence between engineers and bubbles. I don't see why monks should make the same UI sacrifice that Engineers did.
Monks going round creating a 25% debuff on all enemy units would be pretty OP. I agree with it sticking to one. However, as I have seen somewhere before, it would be nice to have some visual method determining which bubble/debuff belongs to which unit. A simple colour coded triangle, or something like that, above each corresponding unit's heads, would suffice.
If only the Shaolin could get access to the Tribe's tidal wave all would be good
Now THAT would be FUN. Seriously, Robot could just add 1 or 2 tidal waves to the Shaolin deck and that might address pertinent balance issues, considering they can be used defensively or offensively.
Challenge me in Hero Academy (username: Gribbs) if you want to spar