Project: Build Consensus Balance Re ...
I'm ambivalent about the sniper nerf, TBH. 2 shotting a vanila 800 with an upgraded sniper (430) and a 390 damage unit actually seems reasonable to me - TF2 have very few ways of 2 shotting things. If you can set up an upgraded sniper shot and a 390 damage shot, you should be entitled to that 2 hit kill (which isn't even that if the vanilla unit has any resistance at all).
My question is, is the sniper really the problem? An immobile 1 shot of middling damage (let's be honest, 400 is not a LOT of damage, especially when blocked by LOS, disrupted by splash, etc)?
The problem with TF2 is that (IMO) they are too efficient. A good battle for TF2 would be one where TF2 units are traded for high value units, and TF2 wins on those trades. If not, TF2 is supposed to lose. To do that, jarate is commonly used - whether in conjunction with a sniper, pyro or soldier. I would instead try to nerf the jarate to nerf the TF2 overall, rather than pick on the sniper (which, tbh, I don't see as a big threat without jarate).
Table of Jarate damage shots
Current Jarate (-175%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
===================================
0% resist 825 | 1072.5 | 1100 | 1182.5
20% resist 765 | 994.5 | 1020 | 1096.5
40% resist 705 | 916.5 | 940 | 1010.5
Nerfed Jarate (-150%)
300 | 390 | 400 | 430
===================================
0% resist 750 | 975 | 1000 | 1075
20% resist 690 | 897 | 920 | 989
40% resist 630 | 819 | 840 | 903Thanks for detailing this.
Nerfing jarate instead would be great and I think -150 is an appropriately cautious adjustment.
So why does pally aura work on crystals anyway? They logically cant be "inspired" which is how the palladin aura traditionally works (for example, in dungeons & dragons).
Anyway, doesnt that seem like a logical small nerf?
Absolutely.
And on the same note, why can't the Taoist be given a mild healing aura?
So why does pally aura work on crystals anyway? They logically cant be "inspired" which is how the palladin aura traditionally works (for example, in dungeons & dragons).
Anyway, doesnt that seem like a logical small nerf?
Absolutely.
And on the same note, why can't the Taoist be given a mild healing aura?
How about progressive combo bonus healing for taoists? Two different taoists heal more? It feels like they should get this. It was one of the first things I checked.
So why does pally aura work on crystals anyway? They logically cant be "inspired" which is how the palladin aura traditionally works (for example, in dungeons & dragons).
Anyway, doesnt that seem like a logical small nerf?
Absolutely.
And on the same note, why can't the Taoist be given a mild healing aura?
How about progressive combo bonus healing for taoists? Two different taoists heal more? It feels like they should get this. It was one of the first things I checked.
Well, yes, several folks noted that combo healing makes sense, including myself. Its a very tiny buff, but it does make sense.
I dont know about the aura for Taoists. If we were going to give them something different, my vote would be that their heals get a heal over time component. But anyway, the problem with adding stuff like this is that it becomes very hard to balance the team without beta testing balance.
I think we stick with traditional buffs, and if we dont get all the way there, maybe add something to the Taoist (other than combo healing, which they may as well get now) in round 2.
OK, the discussion has died down, and really agreement seems far off - I think a vote would help. I suggest the following procedure:
1 vote per buff/debuff per team, except 2 votes for Shaolin. Please update the number as you reply to the post, just cut and paste the options. If you have a new option or if I missed one, feel free to add it, as long as it fits into ArtNJ's guidelines at the beginning. I combed the posted for these, but left out the ones that seemed to not meet the guidelines (especially if it seemed like a mechanics change) and left some that were questionable with a question. I will start the vote/options in the next post. On some items, there is a secondary/subvote on the amount of the change.
By no means do I feel ownership over the items included or not or if it is one vote per team or not, this is just an attempt to build some consensus. I suggest an initial vote and possible runoffs if some things are close.
CL:
• no change: 1
DE:
• no change: 1
• Wraith starting health to 800, bumps less with each feeding to same max: 0
• Wraith consume stomp increases health to 800: 0
• Increase necromancer dmg by 10: 0
TR:
• no change: 0
• Witch explosion boost: 1
* Subvote on how much (vote again if u voted in favor):
* 66%: 1
* 75%: 0
DW:
• no change: 0
• No stacking of paly auras: 1
• Paly aura doesn't work on crystals: 0
• Aura does not give an attack bonus: 0
• annihilator debuff down: 0
* Subvote:
* 50%: 0
* 33%: 0
• Lower paly health to 800: 0
• Paly starts with 0% base resistances: 0
• Engineer bubble range of 2: 0
• Engineer health to 650: 0
• Grenadier AOE down: 0
* Subvote:
* 33%: 0
• Grenadier health to 650: 0
• (separate issue: dwarf movement bonus on shaolin map, round down - most are in agreement on this, I think, perhaps no need to vote on it)
TF2:
• no change: 0
• Sniper to range 6: 0
• Sniper bonus to +250: 0
• Respawn token brings back at 75% health: 0
• Respawn token costs an AP: 0
• Fix Heavy AOE so never hits 4 targets: 0
• Heavy drops health: 0
* Subvote:
* 1000 health: 0
* 1100 health: 0
• Demoman AOE down: 0
* Subvote:
* 33%: 0
• Engineer health to 650: 0
• Jarate to -150%: 0
SL:
• no change: 0
• monk speed to 3: 1
• monk ignores resists on attack: 0
• Windblade AOE increase: 1
* Subvote:
* 100/50/50: 1
* 100/66/66: 0
• Windblade dmg to 250 initial: 0
• Taoist combo healing: 0
• Taoist range to 3: 0
• combo bonus from 200 to 250: 0
• Dragon adds a combo point: 0
• Monk can debuff multiple targets: 0
• Combo potion does adds another combo point (i.e. does more dmg): 0
• Combo potion persists over 3 attacks (seems to violate mechanics though): 0
• Poisoner does additional 10% debuff on physical dmg: 0
• Units can combo multiple times (mechanic?): 0
• Combos last more than 1 turn (mechanic?): 0
• Rezzed wraith keeps upgrades: 0
• Shadow rez at higher iniital health 250: 0
CL: no change
DE: wraith consumes on spawn stomp
DW: hmm. Only one here is a tough one. Probably say no stacking of paladin auras.
TR: no change (but I may be skewed because I don't play nor encounter them often)
TF2: again...only one makes it tough. Sniper range to 6
SL: Monk to move 3 and (it's not on your list) monk swaps places with whatever unit he attacks already dubbed "monk-y swap".
Oops. Didn't read the instructions. Let's just keep th original list and update totals above zero.
CL:
• no change: 2
DE:
• no change: 1
• Wraith consume stomp increases health to 800: 1
TR:
• no change: 1
• Witch explosion boost: 1
* Subvote on how much (vote again if u voted in favor):
* 66%: 1
* 75%: 0
DW:
• No stacking of paly auras: 2
TF2:
• Sniper to range 6: 1
SL:
• monk swaps places with unit he attacks: 1
• monk speed to 3: 1
• Windblade AOE increase: 1
* Subvote:
* 100/50/50: 1
* 100/66/66: 0
I think that may be too complicated. What I propose is to try and boil it down to the things that have the most support, like: Shaolin: A, B & possibly also C, with D and E also enjoing support as alternatives. If I can accurately capture the major alterantives proposed, then folks can simply vote "yes" signifying only that they think good ideas that will do the trick are in there.
I probably wont get a chance to do this until Wednesday.
You aren't going to get a census if you don't collect data. I think this is a fine way to see what everyone thinks is the most important buff/nerf.
I agree with Jibby, at least this could give you some data to work with before Wed. Although Jibby's vote for the monk swap move is probably a mechanic change, and thus I had left it out of the voting process (doesn't fit ArtNJ's original guidelines of no mechanic change). I notice I didn't vote for a TF change, an oversight. Perhaps I will vote later if the voting process does take off. Or, I will vote in Art's on Wed.
I agree with Jibby, at least this could give you some data to work with before Wed. Although Jibby's vote for the monk swap move is probably a mechanic change, and thus I had left it out of the voting process (doesn't fit ArtNJ's original guidelines of no mechanic change). I notice I didn't vote for a TF change, an oversight. Perhaps I will vote later if the voting process does take off. Or, I will vote in Art's on Wed.
I hear you guys, but look at is this way -- we have only have what, 5-10 participants in this thread? Not really enough for a vote, unfortunately.
My hope is that if I really condense things down into a set of ideas that multiple folks seem to like, we might 50 people endorsing it.
Honestly, I am growing increasingly disheartened by Robot's total silence in light of the very serious Shaolin problem, and dont know whether we are wasting our time here, but I started the thread, may as well see it through...
Don't give up Art!
I'm sure they're reading the forum and taking notes as they work on internal balance change testing. They are also probably taking a break for the holidays after the big server migration project.
Honestly, I am growing increasingly disheartened by Robot's total silence in light of the very serious Shaolin problem, and dont know whether we are wasting our time here, but I started the thread, may as well see it through...
Yeah same here, Ive been monitoring the forums and twitter looking for some kind of input from six or zekers but nothing. What bugs me the most is theyll post on twitter 'vote for HA for game of the year contest' across 3 different accounts but cant take the time to say 'hey we're working on a fix for this game were promotting" Ugh, but this isnt the place for me to vent my frustration/disappointment in this studio.
But im agree with the majority here on the changes needed. Monk movement distance, pali buff decrease, wraith buff to starting health, sniper decrease and jarate decrease, witch buff to 66
Honestly, I am growing increasingly disheartened by Robot's total silence in light of the very serious Shaolin problem, and dont know whether we are wasting our time here, but I started the thread, may as well see it through...
They have been silent on balance, but continue to publish the "end-of-year" game lists, reviews and awards. It would certainly be less disheartening to hear a "We know there are balance issues, we are working on a solution" post or three.
I think RE is now going with the Apple-like "Don't say anything until it's ready," approach. The sudden appearance of Mac-Steam-HA is an example.
They announced Shaolin and we all pissed and moaned (we includes me) for weeks about how slow they were. Why would they want more of that?
Just sayin'
Yeah, 2 things then I'm probably out of this thread. Actually, I'll probably just stay off the forums cuz of point 1 below.
1) it's clear to me that this game has changed objectives. Pushing for awards, multiple more expensive platforms, and not a peep about concerns about some balance issues with the latest team. They aren't broken, they're just sub par. I definitely won't jump on the bandwagon when the next team is out until the first balance patch. All teams were insta buys for me until TF2 came out. They're just not what I thought this game was gonna be. A cross genre jump can work, but to me it didn't. Shaolin was getting back to the roots, but with such an enthusiastic outcry for a single post about issues they're dealing with, and getting crickets in the night, I have to say I'm pretty much over it.
2) the community isn't going to get behind a single list of proposed changes. Some people think TF2 is fine, others want them nerfed to oblivion. I want the wraith to have its first consume on stomping, others want it to start with higher health, others think its fine. That's why voting would show what ideas resonate. But I get why it would be insufficient for a thread of 6 followers to vote, but then what was the point of this thread?
And with that, my good ladies an gents, I bid you aufwiedersehen! I'll be back, but not until some of this crap is cleaned up :)
I think you guys are worrying too much. They would never abandon this game, and they already said their next patch will bring balance changes. So just be patient, and in the next month or two I am sure there will be a patch.
I'm glad they're doing as much as they are, to be honest. Would I prefer that they say more, do more? Sure, but they're still promising patches, still adding content.. Think about how long between patches Blizzard or Capcom takes.
At this point, I'm just hoping that the community sticks around and support keeps going! The good thing about a multiplayer game is, as long as the community is around, it never gets old. =)
The lack of attention to the bamboo-bug issue and SL balance overall makes me wary of purchasing any new team in the future (I have all current teams, BTW) if only for the sheer lack of confidence that sufficient beta testing will have been performed.
I know RE has other products that need attention (like OMD), but for the love of Pete, I wish they would just fix Hero Academy and officially wash their hands of future enhancements and support if they can't (or won't) dedicate even parttime programming staff to it.
Now community managers can only post so much before its clear that they are the only resource paying attention. The problem is that the CM might actually, truly care.... but caring is NOT the same as solving.
As far as communication goes, adopting the Apple approach of "not talking till its done" sounds noble and consistent, but RE is not Apple and Robot Entertainment needs to find their own way with their own community. Models are nice to work from as a framework, but not to adopt as an off-the-shelf complete solution.
So we need the Vee-Pee, Bill Lumbergh, to drop by the coders desks this Friday: "Hello Zekers, whats happening? Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around 9 that would be great, mmmk... oh oh! and I almost forgot ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too, kay. We ahh lost some people this week and ah, we sorta need to play catch up."
The communities' balance recommendations are many and varied. Robot has frequently stated they read the forums and consider the suggestions, and has even asked a question or two in the past, but there is no indication that Robot has ever accepted any recommendations per se. If we are to have a real chance of influencing Robot, we should try and get a set of full (each team) balance recommendations that a majority of the community can get behind, even if they personally prefer a different scheme.
These changes should be guided by the following principles, all designed to increase the chance of getting the changes implemented with Robot. We'll have some debate on the package of changes before I call for a vote or "signatures", but I'm not really looking for debate on the following principles guiding this exercise. Principles:
(1) changes should be as modest as possible to get the job done (reason - it is known that Robot is highly protective of casuals and assumed they dont want dramatic changes);
(2) they should not introduce new mechanics (same reason as above);
(3) they should be conservative (better to know you are getting closer than to risk making things worse).
(4) we will not generally make suggestions as to maps. However, if, as I believe, there is wide agreement that the Dwarven bonus on the Shaolin map is OP, we'll include that.
With that in mind, I would like to start the discussion with the following package:
Council & DE: These are our reference teams. Both are currently slight under-powered. They will at least generally be fixed by tweaking the other teams. However, folks do seem to like the idea of bumping Wraith health to 800 and decreasing each feeding bump to keep max health the same (leaving starting damage and damage increments unchanged).
Dwarves: (1) no stacking of Paladin auras -- max bonus is 5%; (2) decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 33%; (3) Palladin aura does not work on crystals.
TF2: (1) decrease sniper crouching bonus from +300 to +250; (2) respawn token brings units back at 75% health (remainder healable); (3) fix heavy AOE so that it never hits 4 targets.
Tribe: The Tribe currently wins about as much as it should, but a majority seem to want to add back some AOE in exchange for reducing some direct power: (1) increase witch corpse explosion damage to 66 or 75%; (2) decrease axethrower bonus damage to +150;
Shaolin: (1) increase Monk movement to 3; (2) increase Windblade AOE to 100/66/66 or 100/50/50; (3) taoists gain combo healing, allowing you to heal for +200 with the second Taoist. Possible additional buff: +1 to Taoist heal range (up to 3). Necessity for this third buff is debated. AOE heal and healing aura have also been suggested.
Increasing combo damage has also been suggested, although I am personally not in favor as a poisoner + a second unit already does very good damage. Allowing captured units to combo has been suggested, but reaction has been mixed to opposed -- the fear being that, for example, if you capture two grenadiers its game over.
{Also note that the idea that the Shaolin team is radically broken and needs a radical rework will not be debated here -- while the view has some validity, it simply does not meet the criteria of this excercise -- to develop a package of changes likely to be palateable to Robot. }
Lets try to build enough consensus to submit a package to community vote (or if not a vote, as a petition for "signature") within one week.
I support the improvements suggested by ArtNJ, and stress how weak SL are right now.
Improvements to make SL more competitive and fun would be:
1) to increase monk movement, (possible increase 30% max hp reduction from 25%?)
2)carry over combos after a turn
3)fix the windblades asymetry damage
4)taoists at the moment are quite useless since its difficult to heal anyone due to overall poor movement of team., therefore, give them movement 3 or heal range of 3 - I find SL's life sustain is terrible, therefore, they are forced to hang back and wait for enemies at the moment.
SL in general are at the mercy of long range or highly mobile bombardment, their mobility should be fixed. They are asian after...fast and mobile, and if they are immobile they should have higher hp or innate regeneration.
**Combo skills should NOT be applied to captured units.**
I'm surprised no one mentioned this earlier, but what if taoists had rez for 200 HP instead of 100 and (maybe) healed for 500 HP instead of 400. Because an engi'd medic heals 650 HP in 2 AP, can't we make the taoist do something like that too?
New tooltip could say: enhanced healer who can remove enemy buffs and debuffs on allied units
I agree with Writch. Robot has talked (a lot) with us in the past, and never said they were too busy to talk; rather, they just stopped. Moreover, on Facebook they are providing inaccurate information, very recently claiming in response to my post about the Shaolin that they are talking with us on this forum and with the League about balance, when they are emphatically not. There would be no basis to get overly excited if Robot made a single meaningful comment on the Shaolin issue, but they havent said *anything* substantive about balance since the release of the team.
The balance stuff we want as to the other teams is gravy. Robot has already done an addequate job. Yeah, there is room for improvement, but by reasonable standards, balance is already good enough that folks should be aware we are making requests for tweeks, not demanding that balance be fixed -- we dont have the right to make demands as to the 5 existing teams. As to the Shaolin, however, people did not get what they paid for -- a competetive team that stands a reasonable chance playing against the other teams when handled by equally skilled players. The Shaolin, as it stands now, is a financial rip-off, and I think the ethical thing to do is to communicate awareness of the issue and commitment to fixing it.
I am with Writch, and would never buy another team until the Shaolin are fixed.
At over 100 posts THIS topic alone is enough for RE to work with - let alone the myriad of other balance thread with the plethora of ideas gushing forth from the scores of active posters.
It is more than very likely RE is 90% done with some visage of a balance patch with a few bug-fixes tossed in for good measure. Good for them. Tell us about it, SixOkay, we're all ears.
For the most part I still enjoy the bulk of my HA games. But when a major bug or clear IMBA crippled-unit jars me to frustration, I am ripped from my immersion in the playing and the fun evaporates faster than Frosty in Hades. And it steams me just as much as that.
It's a lot like watching the Star Wars cantina scene and having the camera pan on Justin Timberlake ordering a Coke at the bar, winking at the camera and totally breaking the 4th wall. I don't like ANY derailing of my train of thought. So I don't want the commercial breaks - which is why I paid for teams. And definitely do not want "Sorry, Technical Difficulties" moments - which is also part of the payment contract.
My IRL situation has reduced this prior chronic, all-night gamer into a casual snatch-15-minutes player. So I don't want to be yanked from my single-serving escapist moments. They are all I have left.
FIX IT.
So we need the Vee-Pee, Bill Lumbergh, to drop by the coders desks this Friday: "Hello Zekers, whats happening? Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. So if you could be here around 9 that would be great, mmmk... oh oh! and I almost forgot ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too, kay. We ahh lost some people this week and ah, we sorta need to play catch up."
He hasn't been putting the cover sheets on his TPS reports. Yeeaah, go ahead and read the memo.
I wonder if anything's happened at RE, actually. The monday blogs have dissappeared, too...
So, someone suggested over in the movement thread an interesting thought for a Shaolin buff. The idea is the monk, when he attacks a unit, he swaps places with them, essentially moving them a space closer to your other units and possibly putting the enemy into range of more offense. I know its a mechanic change (well, addition since the Shaolin don't have a move mechanic at all), but it would definitely be a buff against Dwarves for them, forcing them off tiles and possibly away from paladin auras (which hopefully won't stack soon).
I'll repost my example of a turn with the new mechanic. Move up to enemy, attack and swap him one space closer, attack with poinsoner who's now in range thanks to the movement, attack with the monk again swapping their places back, move away with the monk.
Interesting mechanic but leaves the problem that the enemy unit now KO'd is back in range of enemy healer, ressurect, and KO ur monk since Monk is quite easy to 3 hit. Now, they just traded a low hp unit for your full hp unit.
A better mechanic would be to give monk a 3 movement speed, and a round about AOE dmg and push from center ability. So monk moves behind enemy (1ap), attacks target (1ap)(target recieves full dmg, aoe dmg to every square around him takes 25% dmg) and gets pushed away from monk. initial target now in range of your back line units, combos that target (2-3ap).
OK so now you spent your 5ap, and your monk is at least slightly more safe from enemy melee units (at least 1ap away), but not safe from range.
Question is how far will his aoe push be allowed? If we let him have a push ability of 1 square, using this combo provides great risk, then maybe his aoe should deal 50% of his dmg and apply combo to all units hit. This allows greater combo chances for windblade. If he is allowed to push 2 grids, his risk is significantly reduced because only range 3 units will be able to hit him. HOWEVER, with the ability to push 2 grids, you can potential KO more than 2 units if enemy had 3 front line units and you had some windblades ready for action in the back.
This might be hard to visualize but I think its an interesting mechanic for SL. The Monk does have a staff afterall and should be slightly more aoe dmg based.
They are asian after...fast and mobile,
does this Asian look fast and mobile?
http://www.google.com/search?q=fat+asian&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aPjRUNHgN4qP2gXM4oHADg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=416#i=0
They are asian after...fast and mobile,
does this Asian look fast and mobile?
Ryrythecuban - posting LIKE A BOSS!
So why does pally aura work on crystals anyway? They logically cant be "inspired" which is how the palladin aura traditionally works (for example, in dungeons & dragons).
Anyway, doesnt that seem like a logical small nerf?
I've never seen it, but does paladin aura effect bamboo in the same manner?
scenarios: enemy pally near your bamboo.
Converted pally near your bamboo.
also my vote for the SL buff of monk swap for monky shuffling. Range three too please.
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