Project: Build Consensus Balance Re ...
The communities' balance recommendations are many and varied. Robot has frequently stated they read the forums and consider the suggestions, and has even asked a question or two in the past, but there is no indication that Robot has ever accepted any recommendations per se. If we are to have a real chance of influencing Robot, we should try and get a set of full (each team) balance recommendations that a majority of the community can get behind, even if they personally prefer a different scheme.
These changes should be guided by the following principles, all designed to increase the chance of getting the changes implemented with Robot. We'll have some debate on the package of changes before I call for a vote or "signatures", but I'm not really looking for debate on the following principles guiding this exercise. Principles:
(1) changes should be as modest as possible to get the job done (reason - it is known that Robot is highly protective of casuals and assumed they dont want dramatic changes);
(2) they should not introduce new mechanics (same reason as above);
(3) they should be conservative (better to know you are getting closer than to risk making things worse).
(4) we will not generally make suggestions as to maps. However, if, as I believe, there is wide agreement that the Dwarven bonus on the Shaolin map is OP, we'll include that.
With that in mind, I would like to start the discussion with the following package:
Council & DE: These are our reference teams. Both are currently slight under-powered. They will at least generally be fixed by tweaking the other teams. However, folks do seem to like the idea of bumping Wraith health to 800 and decreasing each feeding bump to keep max health the same (leaving starting damage and damage increments unchanged).
Dwarves: (1) no stacking of Paladin auras -- max bonus is 5%; (2) decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 33%; (3) Palladin aura does not work on crystals.
TF2: (1) decrease sniper crouching bonus from +300 to +250; (2) respawn token brings units back at 75% health (remainder healable); (3) fix heavy AOE so that it never hits 4 targets.
Tribe: The Tribe currently wins about as much as it should, but a majority seem to want to add back some AOE in exchange for reducing some direct power: (1) increase witch corpse explosion damage to 66 or 75%; (2) decrease axethrower bonus damage to +150;
Shaolin: (1) increase Monk movement to 3; (2) increase Windblade AOE to 100/66/66 or 100/50/50; (3) taoists gain combo healing, allowing you to heal for +200 with the second Taoist. Possible additional buff: +1 to Taoist heal range (up to 3). Necessity for this third buff is debated. AOE heal and healing aura have also been suggested.
Increasing combo damage has also been suggested, although I am personally not in favor as a poisoner + a second unit already does very good damage. Allowing captured units to combo has been suggested, but reaction has been mixed to opposed -- the fear being that, for example, if you capture two grenadiers its game over.
{Also note that the idea that the Shaolin team is radically broken and needs a radical rework will not be debated here -- while the view has some validity, it simply does not meet the criteria of this excercise -- to develop a package of changes likely to be palateable to Robot. }
Lets try to build enough consensus to submit a package to community vote (or if not a vote, as a petition for "signature") within one week.
(3) they should be conservative (better to know you are getting closer than to risk making things worse).
decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 25%.
Just thought that this might be a touch overkill, 33% seems more conservative to me. That will keep drill damage out of insane range, but still KO a vanilla unit even if it heals on the next turn. :)
600 + 600*(1/3) = 800
600*1.25 = 750
600*1.5 = 900
I'm behind all ArtNJ's proposals for each team as-is in his OP, except Shaolin.
- I'm OK with bumping the Monk to 3, but with one qualification to my point (3) below.
- I agree with Windblade symmetry - no matter which of the two secondary hit values are settled on.
- I think the Taoist healer needs a bump somehow - more so than Monk needs a square. Healing AoE is kind of a mechanic change and is new overall, so we'll have to pass on that. I think the monk should have the same self-heal like the DW Paladin, and/or DE soul-leech with attack. Basically, the Taoist keeps range and heal strength, but will always self-heal whether healing or attacking, making him as viable a forward unit like they did for Paladin when she was hanging back too much. So if Taoist is bumped, don't bump Monk.
I also proposed a Consolidation and Consensus topic post to help Robots, but I failed to act on it. So I praise ArtNJ in the highest for taking the initiative and especially laud the establishing of guiding principles.
I have so much respect for this effort that I promise that I will not make joke posts in this topic thread - even if CaptObvious posts more tautology. (Okay, that was the only exception).
I would not be opposed to adding the tiny proposed DE buff, bumping initial Wraith health to 800 (leaving damage as is) and decreasing each bump from feeding to maintain the same max health. That has been suggested by various folks and seems like a generally liked change.
I also think its fine to have our consensus plan have some conditional items, noting a split in opion. For example, for we could put both 100/50/50 and 100/66/66 in as alternatives for the Windblade, and if there is a split of opinion as to whether the two Shaolin buffs I proposed above are enough, we can add +Taoist heal range as a possible third buff. Whatever we have to do to get a legit majority on board. Robot is going to use judgment anyway, so it makes sense to give them a menu.
I will update the original post.
(3) they should be conservative (better to know you are getting closer than to risk making things worse).
decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 25%.
Just thought that this might be a touch overkill, 33% seems more conservative to me. That will keep drill damage out of insane range, but still KO a vanilla unit even if it heals on the next turn. :)
600 + 600*(1/3) = 800
600*1.25 = 750
600*1.5 = 900
i know i said this somewhere.. Most people like to nerf it to 20%, i think 33% should be enough aswell. When this is the most devistating is against DE, with soulbomb the units will go over 800 which will not cause a vanilla-onehit anyways. Something DE players will be happy about :)
im willing to accept a remake to the pulverzier, but not a nerf. theres a reason why they buffed the dmg from 500 to 600
I think it'd be really weird to have a super unit debuff worse than the debuff of the poisoner. I think the Annihilator is good how it is and I don't think that the debuff+drill combo is that devastating due to the Dwarves' lack of a range stomp.
Personally, I'd balance the Dwarves by lowering the Paladins' HP a tad and somehow reducing the effectiveness of the bubble, which I believe borders on OP. I didn't play this game when the engineer had a range of two, and I know a lot of people are against reintroducing this, so I won't say that. This is a mechanics change suggestion, but it is a small one (far smaller than the pally aura): how about the bubble is broken if the corresponding engineer takes any damage, and the engineer can only bubble if she is at full health? It would reduce the effectiveness of the Dwarvern fortress without reducing their offensive capabilties. Sorry, wrong thread, I know, but I think it's a decent suggestion.
Dwarves: (1) no stacking of Paladin auras -- max bonus is 5%;
I'm generally in agreement with the rest of the changes, however, this change will not be sufficient to deal with the DW advantage, particularly against DE (low burst damage). Even 5% extra res will mean 1 extra AP in almost all relevant situations, and coupled with the absolute +1AP from the bubble, means that DW gets unkillable real fast. In fact, I think aura stacking doesn't really do anything at all, given that 5% is as good as 15% is most situations (it's mostly +1AP to kill, save for triple paladin which I address further below). The flip side is, coupled with the attack buff, <840 HP (soul bomb buff) doesn't give you +1AP defence advantage either. Same with >905 HP.
Without touching the bubble (because it's an interesting mechanic, even if I hate it), I would instead (or additionally!) propose to (1) remove the attack buff (it really only affects DE anyway, and does DW really need a specific anti-DE mechanic), (2) not affect other paladins (unkillable paladins whut) and (3a) to make the aura only affect the cardinal directions (NSEW), and not the diagonals, or (3b) NOT stack with armor and helm, so that a 960HP unit can be 4 shot by a 300 damage unit, rather than the 5 shot (6 with bubble~!) it takes now.
DE v DW really means that DE loses its essential flavor, for me, not just the unkillable tankiness of DW, but also the fact that I'm never "5HP out of kill range", which was really the reason why I play DE.
The Dwarves are characterized by their slow/abysmal early game but an insanely powerful late game. Once that Dwarf Fortress is set up, it's nearly impossible to stop. Nerfs to the Dwarves should focus on making that late game easier to deal with. Since the foundation of the Dwarf fortress is 2, if not 3 upgraded Paladins, removing Paladin aura stacking will definitely help.
For example, a Gunner/Grenadier with defensive upgrades standing next to two Paladins will take 315 from a Runemetaled burst damage unit (ex. Archer, Impaler, Gunner, etc.). This means that even a Scroll will fall short of killing (315 x 3 = 945, just short of 960). This may seem specific, but it really isn't that hard to set up, and it has won me many games. I've been able to march quite confidently forward with a bubbled, upgraded Gunner/Grenadier backed by two Paladins.
There are other scenarios where the aura from additional Paladins make a difference, such as splash damage.
I have a minor suggestion for buffing the shaolin and increasing the effectiveness of combos:
Have the poisoner debuff do -40% magical (as usual) and -50% physical. This makes possible to 2-shot 800hp no resist units with either monk + poisoner or windblade + poisoner. Currently this combination gives you 760 damage if the poisoner attacks first. In this way, although it is the poisoner's debuff that is improved, the windblade and the monk are the units that benefit. Another combination this improves is that 650 units can be killed with poisoner + thorns, but that is a rare occurence.
Engineer bubbles are pretty powerful now at range 3. But I don't want to make it 2 again. 650hp for engineers?
33% splash sounds good. 25% sounds too low.
Paladin auras stacking should go away.
Reduce that damn sniper!
Come on! The wraith does not need 800 HP to start. I play DE mostly, and I think the only buff they need is to allow the wraith to consume stomp. That punishes a player for leaving a unit unstomped a lot more, and w can all agree that the DE barely needs a nudge.
The Dwarves are characterized by their slow/abysmal early game but an insanely powerful late game. Once that Dwarf Fortress is set up, it's nearly impossible to stop. Nerfs to the Dwarves should focus on making that late game easier to deal with. Since the foundation of the Dwarf fortress is 2, if not 3 upgraded Paladins, removing Paladin aura stacking will definitely help.
For example, a Gunner/Grenadier with defensive upgrades standing next to two Paladins will take 315 from a Runemetaled burst damage unit (ex. Archer, Impaler, Gunner, etc.). This means that even a Scroll will fall short of killing (315 x 3 = 945, just short of 960). This may seem specific, but it really isn't that hard to set up, and it has won me many games. I've been able to march quite confidently forward with a bubbled, upgraded Gunner/Grenadier backed by two Paladins.
There are other scenarios where the aura from additional Paladins make a difference, such as splash damage.
Sure, but only removing aura stacking will not help the 300 damage units. Even 5% will turn a helm/shielded unit into a 5AP kill for a 300 damage unit. In order for DE to have a chance, 300 damage units need to be a threat. While an archer+fireball/splash+drill/naked axe + meat might be a viable option for the other races, trading away sworded imps with no ranged stomp is just not viable for DE.
Come on! The wraith does not need 800 HP to start. I play DE mostly, and I think the only buff they need is to allow the wraith to consume stomp. That punishes a player for leaving a unit unstomped a lot more, and w can all agree that the DE barely needs a nudge.
I actually think consume stomp is way better than 800 base HP. if I could consume stomp, I would basically never deploy a wraith normally. >.>
Council & DE: These are our reference teams. Both are currently slight under-powered. They will at least generally be fixed by tweaking the other teams. However, folks do seem to like the idea of bumping Wraith health to 800 and decreasing each feeding bump to keep max health the same (leaving starting damage and damage increments unchanged).
I support the whole procedure.
DE: I am not certain DE need buffing, assuming TF2 and DW are nerfed. However, does anyone support, instead of the above: Wraith heals a bit eating a corpse?
IMHO, Wraith is already a major factor in DE games and doesn't meed much help. This makes Wraith a little more resilent, but only if you use him. I.E. reward smart active play instead of automatically getting a stronger wraith.
Exactly tabby! Really makes it a choice and kinda buffs DE against mainly CL and DW because their range 3 units can't range stomp. The archer shoots and 3 hit kills a unit, but it would take two AP to waltz up and stomp.
Come on! The wraith does not need 800 HP to start. I play DE mostly, and I think the only buff they need is to allow the wraith to consume stomp. That punishes a player for leaving a unit unstomped a lot more, and w can all agree that the DE barely needs a nudge.
I actually think consume stomp is way better than 800 base HP. if I could consume stomp, I would basically never deploy a wraith normally. >.>
That would be fun. But I think it's too big a buff. Both for Wraith and DE. See my alternative idea above.
Exactly tabby! Really makes it a choice and kinda buffs DE against mainly CL and DW because their range 3 units can't range stomp. The archer shoots and 3 hit kills a unit, but it would take two AP to waltz up and stomp.
A full wraith should be difficult to build. Succeeding is boring for both players. The struggle is what is exciting for both players.
DE doesn't need a buff against CL. Does it?
Nope. I agree, DE only really needs a buff against DW. They might be a bit lower powered than CL or TF2, but I think that's fine - it's never really a shut out against those teams. DW, on the other hand... 6AP kills for 300 damage units are just unworkable, unless imp gets a serious buff (which would then throw the other races out of whack).
Dwarves: (1) no stacking of Paladin auras -- max bonus is 5%; (2) decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 33% or 25%. Possible alternative to decrease drill damage to 500, but not if paired with other changes;
I'd rather see base Paladin resistance reduced or removed. I see aura stacking as a thing which makes Dwarf different from other teams. Note that It encourages clumping, which can be useful to the other team (tribe excepted of course).
Dwarf movement bonus on the shaolin map needs something. That is a true motivation killer if you are the other team.
Shaolin: (1) increase Monk movement to 3; (2) increase Windblade AOE to 100/66/66 or 100/50/50. Possible third buff: +1 to Taoist heal range (up to 3). Necessity for this third buff is debated.
{Note that I am dismissing AOE heal (a clever idea) as not meeting the principles of this exercise. Increasing combo damage has also been suggested, although I am personally not in favor as a poisoner + a second unit already does very good damage.}
{Also note that the idea that the Shaolin team is radically broken and needs a radical rework will not be debated here -- while the view has some validity, it simply does not meet the criteria of this excercise -- to develop a package of changes likely to be palateable to Robot. }
I have explained my "Shaolin needs mobility not just increased movement, not to improve it's win-loss ratio but to improve its fun" arguments elsewhere.
(1) and (2) are improvements.
Don't improve healing--oh god don't make Shaolin games longer. (Just re-read Writch's post. I'd be ok with taoist self healing as I agree it would encourage more forward play...)
If we are not going to try to get behind a substantial reworking of Shaolin, please add:
4) turned units can combo.
Well, if DW gets nerfed, it buffs everyone else. Are we prepared to say that DW is the strongest team? Council is still what we should base everything on. Good players should win approximately 50/50 with every team, give or take a few games here or there for random unit draw and mess ups.
I still think DE needs a very small buff. Just a nudge. And dwarves need to come down to a level where it's completely not hopeless.
Id like to point out something: does anyone win via crystal kill anymore? Could we explore that avenue, perhaps lower crystal health to encourage that route to win? I feel like a crystal kill is usually out of reach for the number of units I have, you can't really switch gears mid game: you gotta commit at the beginning or there wont be enough time.
Ok, think about who can CK best (lob drills bonus gem damage), think about who are crap at crystal killing (... yeah guess who) and think about whether you reallyREALLY want to buff CKs.
Exactly tabby! Really makes it a choice and kinda buffs DE against mainly CL and DW because their range 3 units can't range stomp. The archer shoots and 3 hit kills a unit, but it would take two AP to waltz up and stomp.
A full wraith should be difficult to build. Succeeding is boring for both players. The struggle is what is exciting for both players.
DE doesn't need a buff against CL. Does it?
The buff it would get against council would be less than it would get against DW because the council does have a form of range stomp. Dwarves don't, meaning they have more to risk if then grenadier a unit or a group of units to pieces 3 spaces away, but leave the corpses. Pop in wraith, devour one, devour 2, equip, move back.
I really can't think of another way to buff the DE specically against DW. Dwarves are fun to play with, the team really clicks, but they are slightly OP, and really can't be bothered by DE.
The communities' balance recommendations are many and varied. Robot has frequently stated they read the forums and consider the suggestions, and has even asked a question or two in the past, but there is no indication that Robot has ever accepted any recommendations per se. If we are to have a real chance of influencing Robot, we should try and get a set of full (each team) balance recommendations that a majority of the community can get behind, even if they personally prefer a different scheme.
These changes should be guided by the following principles, all designed to increase the chance of getting the changes implemented with Robot. We'll have some debate on the package of changes before I call for a vote or "signatures", but I'm not really looking for debate on the following principles guiding this exercise. Principles:
(1) changes should be as modest as possible to get the job done (reason - it is known that Robot is highly protective of casuals and assumed they dont want dramatic changes);
(2) they should not introduce new mechanics (same reason as above);
(3) they should be conservative (better to know you are getting closer than to risk making things worse).
With that in mind, I would like to start the discussion with the following package:
Council & DE: These are our reference teams. Both are currently slight under-powered. They will at least generally be fixed by tweaking the other teams. However, folks do seem to like the idea of bumping Wraith health to 800 and decreasing each feeding bump to keep max health the same (leaving starting damage and damage increments unchanged).
Dwarves: (1) no stacking of Paladin auras -- max bonus is 5%; (2) decrease in annihilator debuff from 50% to 33% or 25%. Possible alternative to decrease drill damage to 500, but not if paired with other changes;
TF2: (1) decrease sniper crouching bonus from +300 to +250; (2) I have the sense that another small nerf is needed, but I dont know that the community has really formed any momentum for any particular change. Trip seems to think the sniper nerf might be enough by itself;
Tribe: The Tribe currently wins about as much as it should, but a majority seem to want to add back some AOE in exchange for reducing some direct power: (1) increase witch corpse explosion damage to 66 or 75%; (2) decrease axethrower bonus damage to +150;
Shaolin: (1) increase Monk movement to 3; (2) increase Windblade AOE to 100/66/66 or 100/50/50. Possible third buff: +1 to Taoist heal range (up to 3). Necessity for this third buff is debated.
{Note that I am dismissing AOE heal (a clever idea) as not meeting the principles of this exercise. Increasing combo damage has also been suggested, although I am personally not in favor as a poisoner + a second unit already does very good damage.}
{Also note that the idea that the Shaolin team is radically broken and needs a radical rework will not be debated here -- while the view has some validity, it simply does not meet the criteria of this excercise -- to develop a package of changes likely to be palateable to Robot. }
Lets try to build enough consensus to submit a package to community vote (or if not a vote, as a petition for "signature") within one week.
Above I have suggested alterations to ArtNJ's list, which I believe are minor improvements.
Here I would like to state my support for the process and that I will add my support to the consensus list, assuming it is similar too and in the spirit of ArtNJ's list. I recommend, as stated elsewhere, a very small number of adjustments per team. That is, let's get behind one or two good ideas per team, not all good ideas per team.
Are there any other minor TF2 nerf suggestions? At a minimum, we should probably eliminate the mysterious and inconsistent heavy hits 4 targets situations.
I personally like the idea of captured units being able to combo, but my sense the last time it was raised was that most didnt want that? Even if captured units cant combo, perhaps the combo potion could work on captured units.
We can include elimination of Dwarf movement bonus on the Shaolin map, because that is so clear. Beyond that, I'd rather not include map-related stuff here.
I personally like the idea of captured units being able to combo, but my sense the last time it was raised was that most didnt want that? Even if captured units cant combo, perhaps the combo potion could work on captured units.
Grenadier combo points gives me the heebie jeebies. Combo potion working with grenadiers means that the potions better with captured units than with SL units, which I think breaks the flavor.
Are there any other minor TF2 nerf suggestions? At a minimum, we should probably eliminate the mysterious and inconsistent heavy hits 4 targets situations.
I personally like the idea of captured units being able to combo, but my sense the last time it was raised was that most didnt want that? Even if captured units cant combo, perhaps the combo potion could work on captured units.
Are there any other minor TF2 nerf suggestions? At a minimum, we should probably eliminate the mysterious and inconsistent heavy hits 4 targets situations.
I personally like the idea of captured units being able to combo, but my sense the last time it was raised was that most didnt want that? Even if captured units cant combo, perhaps the combo potion could work on captured units.
I cannot explain it. There are a set of inconsistent and limited circumstances where the heavy can hit 4 targets. You can look in Hamlet's mechanics guide for a description of what is known about it. That it is inconsistent and impossible to predict unless you study and memorize the appendix to Hamlet's guide is sufficient reason to do away with it. Its so rare it isnt really a nerf...it seems to come up once every 20 or 25 games. Its more just something that should be changed.
the shadow doesnt really need a buff, even if its small
i also think nerfing heavy from 1200hp to 1000hp is a good idea, since hes just so god damn strong. But all TF2 players gonna hate this :) cant find any more places to nerf, even if they need something more..
the shadow doesnt really need a buff, even if its small
i also think nerfing heavy from 1200hp to 1000hp is a good idea, since hes just so god damn strong. But all TF2 players gonna hate this :) cant find any more places to nerf, even if they need something more..
I could see 1150 or 1100. Just not sure the reduction in sniper damage is enough. What do others think?
+1 I'm happy to see you don't want to nerf the heck out of teams, yet balance them. I love TF2 sniper, and I know he's OP but I don't want him to suck. Lol and shaolin is a hard team to figure out. Making comboing easier is what they need not more damage for every combo, because then the fun of comboing would be taken out since 2 combos could kill a vanilla unit. I was thinking the monk needs more of a charge like the chieftain, or a pull like the impaler.