Patch 1.4.2 Changes, Discuss!
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 13:23
#2
I'm a little surprised that the patch applied to games ALREADY IN PROGRESS. I had guys sitting on a movement tile, not they are on it no longer. I had a fully loaded paladin in range of a poisoner. Now because of the buffs and nerfs he is at risk! This change really shifted 2 of my in progress games. I would have liked to see the patch apply to new games only...
QFT
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 13:29
#3
That's not technically possible for it to affect some games and not others. RE should probably give that warning before every patch though.
often times I feel that swording a ninja is a waste of a sword. situational though..
Yeah me too. I typically wouldn't do it vs Dwarves or Tribe because their burst damage is brutal. But if you wear out your opponent's resources and kept your ninja for last, I'd probably go for it.
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 15:07
#4
Yeah and you just gave the wiz a sword instead of an archer or ninja, and used two of your consumables to be deadly for just a moment. The wiz might be ohhhhh so slightly better than the windblade but again that's not my argument.
often times I feel that swording a ninja is a waste of a sword. situational though..
Agreed. And sworded Wizards are surprisingly versatile, for many of the reasons already discussed. The Wiz is often not given the respect he deserves -- in the context of the CL team as a whole, he's nowhere near Windblade levels of suck.
That said, I don't agree with Hiruma's suggestion that Knights and Clerics should ever be considered for swords except in VERY special circumstances (like the recent West vs. East team match).
How often do you give Clerics any equipment at all? In desperate times I've given a Priestess a sword before because 300 dmg plus a future dmg buff often worked to dissuade my opponent from being relentless in his short-term pursuit giving me time to reorganize and regain my shape.
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 16:47
#5
In desperate times I've given a Priestess a sword before because 300 dmg plus a future dmg buff often worked to dissuade my opponent from being relentless in his short-term pursuit giving me time to reorganize and regain my shape.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I had a game where a +3 priestess dominated for 2/3 the game. When she died the monster VMs just came in and finished up, so preistesses are a viable unit for upgrades. :)
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 18:25
#6
Agreed. And sworded Wizards are surprisingly versatile, for many of the reasons already discussed. The Wiz is often not given the respect he deserves -- in the context of the CL team as a whole, he's nowhere near Windblade levels of suck.
That said, I don't agree with Hiruma's suggestion that Knights and Clerics should ever be considered for swords except in VERY special circumstances (like the recent West vs. East team match).
i said it depends alot on the situation and matchup. But yes, most of the upgrades when going for this tactic is better to put on the wizard then the other 2 (still, recently i had an awesome game CL mirror where i won the game thanks to 2 +3 knights running around the battlefield. Whereas for example if it would have been an archer they would have been sniped). Just be carefull when you equip since it can backfire if you did the wrong judgement S: !
Wed, 02/06/2013 - 21:53
#7
Yeah and you just gave the wiz a sword instead of an archer or ninja, and used two of your consumables to be deadly for just a moment. The wiz might be ohhhhh so slightly better than the windblade but again that's not my argument.
But.. but if Shaolin comes out needing another buff.. then I would vote windblade. In the meantime I don't think all the units on a team have to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. Unless you're Dark Elves cause that's just how they roll.
But.. but if Shaolin comes out needing another buff.. then I would vote windblade. In the meantime I don't think all the units on a team have to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. Unless you're Dark Elves cause that's just how they roll.
In my book it is completely unreasonable to give sword to ninja... Only if a certain situation demands it. The ninja kills both 650 and 800 hp units in 2 hits. The only time you want to upgrade ninja is playing Dark Elves or Dwarves. Because the extra hp + void monk needs more damage than 800. And the paladin for dwarves gives easy access for extra resistance + the engineers bubble. The team you want to NOT upgrade the ninja is the Tribe and Shaolin. But playing Council and tf2 depends on the situation. For tf2 swording the wizards might be a good idea. The time you need the ninja upgraded is when they dont have any more jarates. For the Council i think it depends on which units you need to kill and what units are left. If you use the ninja to kill big units... Some other units could do the job, but if you ran out of archers then you need to upgrade the ninja. But if you use him to kill easy targets or hunting medics than don't upgrade the ninja.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 02:00
#8
You realize you started with "In my book it is completely unreasonable to give sword to ninja..." and ended with more than a handful of reasons to give Ninja a sword.
It's not my favorite move because his teleportation is only half-effective.. you're putting him in danger or someone else. Late game he's great though.
Also wizards.. are lame? Jus.. not sure if my opinion was clear. They're OLD.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 12:06
#9
lso wizards.. are lame? Jus.. not sure if my opinion was clear. They're OLD.
Careful, sonny, we old folk were wizzin' before the like of you pups were sucklin at your moms' teats!'
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 08:23
#10
You realize you started with "In my book it is completely unreasonable to give sword to ninja..." and ended with more than a handful of reasons to give Ninja a sword.
It's not my favorite move because his teleportation is only half-effective.. you're putting him in danger or someone else. Late game he's great though.
Also wizards.. are lame? Jus.. not sure if my opinion was clear. They're OLD.
It's not my favorite move because his teleportation is only half-effective.. you're putting him in danger or someone else. Late game he's great though.
Also wizards.. are lame? Jus.. not sure if my opinion was clear. They're OLD.
It just depends on the teams and situation but usually im against it.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 08:24
#11
lso wizards.. are lame? Jus.. not sure if my opinion was clear. They're OLD.
Careful, sonny, we old folk were wizzin' before the like of you pups were sucklin at our moms' teats!'
Its funny because ur the 69th reply... Lol
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 10:58
#12
In my opinion
Old team ranking
TF2
Dwarves
Tribe
Council
Dark elves
Shaolin
How it looks after the changes
Dwarves
TF2
Tribe
Council
Dark elves
Shaolin
Agree that the changes bring the teams closer together but don't think it will be enough to change their standings
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 13:11
#13
I'm still waiting for stories about Shaolin, if people are doing better with them or not. I really want to play with them, but they were unplayable pre-patch.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 13:23
#14
I'm still waiting for stories about Shaolin, if people are doing better with them or not. I really want to play with them, but they were unplayable pre-patch.
Much, much better than pre-patch. The Bamboo fix alone makes them playable again, I think, and the buffs are significant, even if they are not the ones that I would have chosen.
The Poisoner's enhanced debuff effectively makes all other units better as well (which was probably the rationale for the change) and the Monk now has far more utility. On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 14:58
#15
On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 16:33
#16
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
I said "weakest link", not "guaranteed easy kill"...
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 17:29
#17
I wish one unit could set a permanent combo... It lasting until the next turn but i dont know who should be able to that. Either the medic or shadow. Because i feel like they need more moves to debuff enemies. I think the best unit for that would be shadow because there is only one of them. If there were 3 of them that could do that then it would be too op. Or the medic would be a good choice. Because he is in the back line and doesn't then he can do hit and runs, he wouldn't attack otherwise.
Thu, 02/07/2013 - 20:40
#18
On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
Oh, TBK, you are such a master at baiting!
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 01:06
#19
On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
I keep trying to strategize my games so the Shadow can nab a really good unit, but either:
a) the opponent knows better than to EVER give that opportunity, or
b) the opponent is noob, and it's not satisfying
So that function of the Shadow is essentially for intimidation only. This brings me sadness.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 02:57
#20
On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
I keep trying to strategize my games so the Shadow can nab a really good unit, but either:
a) the opponent knows better than to EVER give that opportunity, or
b) the opponent is noob, and it's not satisfying
So that function of the Shadow is essentially for intimidation only. This brings me sadness.
1. Have you played JohnJanitor? I have trouble getting good value from shadow too, but he showed me uses for shadow I hadn't seen.
2. Isn't intimidation what all the strong units are about, at a high enough level of play? Good players use the threat of (*insert game-winning advantage here*) to gain smaller, but significant, advantages.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 07:19
#21
1. Have you played JohnJanitor? I have trouble getting good value from shadow too, but he showed me uses for shadow I hadn't seen.
2. Isn't intimidation what all the strong units are about, at a high enough level of play? Good players use the threat of (*insert game-winning advantage here*) to gain smaller, but significant, advantages.
Against decent players, I've seen the Shadow used to shape the map like a Sniper, Spy or Chieftan does - by displacement. Better players could even leverage that to try to bunch enemy units up for an AOE attack.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 11:23
#22
I think the Shadow is easily Shaolin's MVP. Give it a shield (and helm if strong magical offense is on the board) and keep it near your front lines and you'll have a unit-reviving, range-stomping, combo-making, unit-stealing tank that your opponent must respect.
Edited to add: On second thought, give it a helm no matter what. Keep it alive at (almost) any cost.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 11:49
#23
I think the Shadow is easily Shaolin's MVP. Give it a shield (and helm if strong magical offense is on the board) and keep it near your front lines and you'll have a unit-reviving, range-stomping, combo-making, unit-stealing tank that your opponent must respect.
Edited to add: On second thought, give it a helm no matter what. Keep it alive at (almost) any cost.
while i generally dont give the shadow a sword...now with the 50% debuff from poisoner a sworded poisoner + sworded shadow can now drop 800 hp units with just their combo. this was something not possible pre patch.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 12:20
#24
while i generally dont give the shadow a sword...now with the 50% debuff from poisoner a sworded poisoner + sworded shadow can now drop 800 hp units with just their combo. this was something not possible pre patch.
Yeah, I noticed this development too.
But I wasn't going to tell anybody - and I certainly wasn't about to advertise it on the public forums to telegraph my intentions.
Thanks, BiA85.... Thanks heaps. ಠ_ಠ
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 12:46
#25
*takes note*
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 12:48
#26
Isn't intimidation what all the strong units are about, at a high enough level of play? Good players use the threat of (*insert game-winning advantage here*) to gain smaller, but significant, advantages.
Yes, but that doesn't make it fun. A the end of the day don't we just want a shielded/helmed/sworded Chieftain on the wrong team? The old HA super-challenge used to be a fully-buffed Wraith but the Shadow one-upped that. I could get a fully buffed Wraith once every hundred games against a good opponent but I haven't figured out something for the Shadow yet.
However I haven't played since the patch. This could all be moot.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 12:55
#27
Yeah, I noticed this development too.
But I wasn't going to tell anybody - and I certainly wasn't about to advertise it on the public forums to telegraph my intentions.
Thanks, BiA85.... Thanks heaps. ಠ_ಠ
heh...oops? im rooting for shaolin to have a major power swing from this patch so ill help em out any way i can :P
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 13:04
#28
On the downside, the team is more dependant than ever on having Poisoners safely deployed. Without one, they can really struggle to threaten anything, and the continuing fragility of the Poisoner means that they are still the weakest link defensively.
Sure, just come right over and take my poisoner. I promise nothing bad will happen to the unit, especially if there is a Shadow nearby.
Oh, TBK, you are such a master at baiting!
I'm going to cut bait on this line of discussion.
Fri, 02/08/2013 - 18:58
#29
I think the Shadow is easily Shaolin's MVP. Give it a shield (and helm if strong magical offense is on the board) and keep it near your front lines and you'll have a unit-reviving, range-stomping, combo-making, unit-stealing tank that your opponent must respect.
Edited to add: On second thought, give it a helm no matter what. Keep it alive at (almost) any cost.
thinking of the games we had? P;
Shadow
Is
Nasty
Vs
Teams
That
Lack
"Proper" (aka necro, witch, tf2 racial)
Ranged
Stomp
Abilities
So if your playing DWs and CLs (even more so dwarves) just get that god damn shadow or he rapes you S:
Mon, 02/11/2013 - 14:05
#30
Change list:
Dark Elf:
Wraith Starting HP increased by 150 and soul charges reduced by 50 HP
Dwarves:
Paladin HP decreased to 900
Shaolin:
Monk moment increased to 3
Poisoner debuffed increased to 50%
Team Fortress 2:
Sniper Crouch bonus reduced to 250
Heavy HP Reduced to 1100
One thing I noticed is that outside of the Sniper nerf, none of these balance changes affect damage. I remember in one of his earlier posts, SixOkay commented that it's difficult to do balance changes without messing up the Challenges. The Sniper nerf doesn't affect the Challenges because you never start off with a crouched Sniper, and the HP/movement changes likely didn't have that much of an impact (if any) either.
Perhaps this is why we didn't get the Tribe Witch corpse explosion buff or Windblade splash damage buff that we requested, because it would require certain challenges to be reworked (although I would argue that, as much as I enjoyed the challenges, balance changes should take precedence).
Yeah and you just gave the wiz a sword instead of an archer or ninja, and used two of your consumables to be deadly for just a moment. The wiz might be ohhhhh so slightly better than the windblade but again that's not my argument.
often times I feel that swording a ninja is a waste of a sword. situational though..
Agreed. And sworded Wizards are surprisingly versatile, for many of the reasons already discussed. The Wiz is often not given the respect he deserves -- in the context of the CL team as a whole, he's nowhere near Windblade levels of suck.
That said, I don't agree with Hiruma's suggestion that Knights and Clerics should ever be considered for swords except in VERY special circumstances (like the recent West vs. East team match).