Patch 1.4.2 Changes, Discuss!
Here are my thoughts on the patch:
Wraith buff: Nice change that will give the wraith a bit more survivability early on. I'm interested to hear whether the shining helm and soulstone now give the wraith plus 80 hp. That extra 30 hp doesn't sound like much but it will bring the 1350 hp barrier into play on a more frequent basis.
Paladin nerf: very situational nerf. now that it essentially takes 1000 damage to kill an unupgraded paladin it makes them a bit more vulnerable early on. It also now takes exactly 1800 damage to kill a fully upgraded paladin surrounded by her two brethren so it at least gives a 450 damage attacker a fighting chance if they have a scroll. Not the change I would have made cause I think dwarves need more stability early on and a weaker late game but it will weaken a strong team nonetheless.
Heavy Nerf: I think this will have the least impact of all the changes. mainly makes him more killable in the mirror matchup and lets a sworded chieftan or witch take him out in one meat shot and one more hit. i personally didn't think the heavy needed a nerf as he's one of the few TF2 units with staying power.
Sniper nerf: perfect nerf as everyone before has been saying. TF2 has enough high attack units without snipers being an auto jarate kill.
Monk buff: I personally would have preferred a resist buff to make him more of a wall but that may just be my personal playstyle creeping in. Obviously this makes it easier to slap debuffs on key units without outright sacrifcing the monk everytime. He definitely needed some sort of buff.
Poisoner buff: I was pretty surprised that they chose to buff the poisoner as well mainly because it goes against the combo flavor of the team. This change should result in significantly better shaolin results so I don't have a huge problem with it.
Overall, I think dwarves and TF2 will probably still be a bit better but not by quite as much while I think the other 4 teams should play pretty evenly now.
i remember it something more like this... : i asked you, but you said you were busy atm and couldnt play for a couple of weeks or something. But ohwell that doesnt matter, the next nerf dwarves get we can try a game. I'll send one to you instantly when that happens. in maybe.. 5months? :)
Double huh?? When did you ask me? I was listed as "available" from August through January, and never saw you on my game list -- aside from our little Shaolin experiment... ;)
And, for the record, I don't need a Dwarf nerf to take you on. Just don't be surprised if it's a mirror match. ;D Shall we pencil it in for June? (Should have time for League matches again by then.)
I don't like the TF2 nerfs. I haven't been in an instance where I wished my heavy to have 1200 health back, but I loved chipping units with Sniper. If they don't have a healer; then free 400 damage. I can understand how cheap it is, but in my opinion, compared to the other teams and their respective strategies, it seemed balance. I admit, jarate, sniper, and scout seemed OP, but I find every faction has cheap tactics to them. I always cringed when my fully upgraded Ninja was stomped by Inferno, or a fully upgraded Void Monk gets healed from that AOE right next to my units. I'm OK with it now, 'cause I'm starting to see that's how the game is. Dealing 430 damage to a team where healers only heal 400 seemed like a good turn to me. Free 30 damage. Now, doing 350 seems like a worthless turn. I just bought the game two months ago, so I don't know what'll be balanced or not. I'm no expert; no professional player when I say this, but it's just an opinion; input, on the update. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And with the new changes to the map with the Speed Tile, if the player goes first, he/she can easily assert dominance over the tile. A simple two ranged unit can control it on the first turn, and then use it at ease. I personally didn't mind the two speed tiles next to the crystal prior to the update, but reading other people's opinions, I can see why. Judging by the Dwarve's Team Bonus, I can see how balancing the whole map would be an issue.
I'm not sure if I like the monk buff, 3 move makes him a really good debuffer. I expected the poisoner buff, but am not sure if it's a good idea in the long run - I believe sworded poisoners 2 shot everything now. It really does seem like SL is becoming "CL" - why would anyone pick CL with SL having better meat, better long range, better ranged stomps.. crappy AOE. Eh, can't win'em all. =p
DW, on the other hand...
The pally nerf... ugh. Really?? That's it? -100 HP? Didn't even touch the +damage buff, which was basically just picking on DE? Still a 3AP kill for a 450 damage unit on a naked pally? Still (countem) 4(?!) AP for a 450 unit to take down a +1 pally with shield?
Still 5AP to kill a +2 anything standing next to a pally? 6AP with bubble?
... man. Seriously. DW are going to rule the roost no question.
I very much dislike the way they updated it... ( i will probably change my opinion later.) but the paladan has 900 hp! Why? no unit ever has 900 hp always 650, 800, 1000. And if they change that now then where will they fall back on. Just some random number that fixes everything. (im being sarcastic but its also true) i mean sure this can balance some things but whatever happened to it following the rules but i like the hp decrease rather than anything else about the paladin it would changes the way the strategy or tactics of the dwarves pretty drastically, so overall i actual think its a plus i just dont like the way they did it.
And the sniper! Now what the heck is the point of the sniper. When the heck will you need more than 100 hp and less then 250. And in which the less than 250 is in your line of fire. And what the heck is the hp reduced to 1100 going to do with the sniper debuff? Honestly the 1100 does nothing for 200, 300, 450 damage. Tf2 is made of 9 units, 2 of each. So changing just 2 units i dont think is enough because not one unit is op. So i think that what they did to tf2 dull and pointless. This is a minus.
The new wraith update now made the dark elves my least fav team. I only liked them because they were unique and very different. With the stupid hp buff there just like all the other units but way less extreme and more op. Now i can foresee a balance change and dark elves will be the ones that are op. This is probably a minus... I thought the dark elves as a team was pretty good, and balanced. But adding this i think is screwing up everything good the dark elves had. So its a minus.
I do appreciate the bug fixes very much. And the shaolin fixes but i do think they are incomplete, and need so tiny tweaks. The poisoner did need a boost. But the windblade will need changing. And maybe even the combos they receive. But i would say this portion is a plus.
Overall i like this update but i did not like some of the "balance" parts of the update i appreciate the bug fixes, because it seemed like HA was falling into pieces, and now its starting to come back.
Ouch... the Axe Thrower is one case that hadn't occurred to me. Just another reason that he needs a minor nerf (150 bonus damage?). He can basically 3 shot (while unbuffed) nearly any unbuffed unit except knights.
In the meantime, the witch doc can get buffed. 66% AOE? 75%?
dont forget he oneshots 800hp units on defense tiles aswell. 3AP 1000dmg is.. alot... And got lots of uses and not only vs DE.. :(
The axe thrower is perfectly fine... To add in he is not mobile, attack range of 2, meduim hp. Which means that most of the time he hides in the back somewhat or he is on the frontline as bait for blood rage. In both cases a turn is wasted either reviving him or you would have to advance him to get a kill which waste 1 or 2 ap then the kill which is 3 ap then to top that he has to advance in order to stomp on the KOed unit which makes it at a tally of 4 to 5 ap, which makes your axe thrower a free kill so... But i do agree that +150 would be good... If they increase aoe damage for exploding the corpse of a dead body and upgrade blood rage damage. Often times blood rage does nothing. And takes down enough health that it does nothing good for me, as it requires another hit to follow it off. But i do realize that the person i use it should be wounded from spike armor allowing blood rage to actually do something if i was wearing spike armor. But most times i dont think thats the case with me.
I remember writing somewhere here weeks ago something like: "Within 24 hours of the next balance adjustment, we'll be whining again."
But I am really surprised at the quantity of moaning. This is a significant balance adjustment. It may not change the order much but it does compress the extremes. They were being cautious, and I'm glad.
I would like to hear their reasoning about poisoner though. Do they have a theory that one powerful unit (poisoner) and one feable unit (windblade) makes more interesting game-play than two solid units? I guess it does increase volatility, giving a poor player a better chance of beating a better player.
Any other arguments you can think of?
An example of the balance adjustment's significance: Monk debuff on paladin now makes her very killable. (It just turned the tables in a game I'm playing.)
MOOAAANNNN
I would like to hear their reasoning about poisoner though. Do they have a theory that one powerful unit (poisoner) and one feable unit (windblade) makes more interesting game-play than two solid units? I guess it does increase volatility, giving a poor player a better chance of beating a better player.
Any other arguments you can think of?
Wizards suck in the same fashion as windblades.. people don't complain. Axe throwers, Demoman kind of suck. Most teams just have a suck unit it seems.
.., Demoman kind of suck.
O RLY?
UR DOIN IT WRONG.
I'm glad they didn't go overboard, but I'm afraid of how long shaolin patch 2.0 will take if this isn't enough.
Screw you dwarves. Hope you're at least a fun match now rather than an unmovable wall. You too tf2!
.., Demoman kind of suck.
O RLY?
UR DOIN IT WRONG.
Writch, you chopped out the worst offender in that sentence: Axeman? Are you having a bad impartiality day? ;)
darkoz's sentence has got to be trollage...
I would like to hear their reasoning about poisoner though. Do they have a theory that one powerful unit (poisoner) and one feable unit (windblade) makes more interesting game-play than two solid units? I guess it does increase volatility, giving a poor player a better chance of beating a better player.
Any other arguments you can think of?
Wizards suck in the same fashion as windblades.. people don't complain. Axe throwers, Demoman kind of suck. Most teams just have a suck unit it seems.
I haven't heard people complain about Axeman or Demomen. I have heard them complain about wizard. Maybe it is similar. Seems like windbade is worse than wizard, but maybe it is just expectations. Now that poisoner can be in the same sentence as archer, maybe it is a valid comparison.
I haven't heard people complain about Axeman or Demomen. I have heard them complain about wizard. Maybe it is similar. Seems like windbade is worse than wizard, but maybe it is just expectations. Now that poisoner can be in the same sentence as archer, maybe it is a valid comparison.
No damage resistance, less useful splash pattern, and worse item synergy (wiz + inferno vs. blade + dragon). They are comparable, but the Wizard is clearly superior in my book.
The Wizard also gets team benifit from being paired with the Cleric, who is extemely good at managing AoE damage. A Council player who's smart can match any other team for AoE poke (cept DW of course). Feeble damage on the Windblade plus feeble healing means Shaolin AoE is dead on arrival.
I don't troll. You don't have to be passively condescending if you disagree. On an individual level, I think those units aren't too good. If you've got ways of owning with your demoman, I'd love to hear it. I know axe throwers are really good for suicide runs, but they can't get resists nor can demo.
Wizards. Suck.
My argument is just that most teams have a weak unit, not that each of those weak units are equally crappy. For example the weakest dwarf unit has got to be the gunner, but he's not weak at all, he's just weaker in comparison to the rest of his team.
Wiz also gets access to scroll, so a sworded wiz chain lighting + inferno can be pretty brutal. Combo pots, slightly more meh.
Yeah and you just gave the wiz a sword instead of an archer or ninja, and used two of your consumables to be deadly for just a moment. The wiz might be ohhhhh so slightly better than the windblade but again that's not my argument.
But.. but if Shaolin comes out needing another buff.. then I would vote windblade. In the meantime I don't think all the units on a team have to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. Unless you're Dark Elves cause that's just how they roll.
Yeah, I agree with you there.... All of DW's units strike fear into my heart too, btw. >.>
I don't troll. You don't have to be passively condescending if you disagree.
I don't know you well enough to know whether you troll or not. Other people here have talked about demomen and axemen being key elements of their teams. I wondered if you were trying to rile Writch up.
On an individual level, I think those units aren't too good. If you've got ways of owning with your demoman, I'd love to hear it.
I am not a TF2 expert. An upgraded demoman on a sword tile is a game changer and the threat of it often drives a game, depending on the map.
I know axe throwers are really good for suicide runs,
Axethrowers combine well with rage. And not just for suicide when supported by a witch or a warrior.
but they can't get resists nor can demo.
True, but a trait of their respective teams.
Wizards. Suck.
Agreed, compared with Archers.
My argument is just that most teams have a weak unit, not that each of those weak units are equally crappy. For example the weakest dwarf unit has got to be the gunner, but he's not weak at all, he's just weaker in comparison to the rest of his team.
Agreed. Except for the teams that don't have weak units, like dwarves and DE, and IMO, Tribe.
I don't know you well enough to know whether you troll or not. Other people here have talked about demomen and axemen being key elements of their teams. I wondered if you were trying to rile Writch up.
Writch don't need trolling. He's a fully automated, perpetually wound, self-riling machine.
♫♪ Trollin, trollin, trollin.... ♪keep them doggies trollin..♪.. rawhide!♫
i remember it something more like this... : i asked you, but you said you were busy atm and couldnt play for a couple of weeks or something. But ohwell that doesnt matter, the next nerf dwarves get we can try a game. I'll send one to you instantly when that happens. in maybe.. 5months? :)
Double huh?? When did you ask me? I was listed as "available" from August through January, and never saw you on my game list -- aside from our little Shaolin experiment... ;)
And, for the record, I don't need a Dwarf nerf to take you on. Just don't be surprised if it's a mirror match. ;D Shall we pencil it in for June? (Should have time for League matches again by then.)
:S
lets just forget it and focus on the furture games instead xD
Am i the only one that is giving less and less equipments on my archers and ninjas and start to focus alot more on knights, wizards and clerics?
Found that having more 300dmg units is lovely to have. And when they get the upgrades instead they will become the focused targets. So when they die you will have ninjas and archers left anyways to provide dmg. The equipping still depends alot on the situation tho :)
+3 wizards on the shield tile are preety darn annoying!
Wizards are a little situational, but certainly much better than Windblade. Windblade is perhaps the least valuable unit of any team except TF2 which is a special case.
Demomen are awesome and routinely win games, so yeah, as Writch or Adaza said, if they arent awesome for you, you arent doing it right. I mean, they arent necessarily going to have a huge roll every single game, they are not like the archer in that way, but they are fairly commonly the MVP.
+3 wizards on the shield tile are preety darn annoying!
well you got impalers so you can atleast drag them off. its worse for the other teams S:
Fair enough. I'll give the Demoman plenty of credit on the Shaolin map and the middle sword tile map. 3 range is always nice there.
Yeah and you just gave the wiz a sword instead of an archer or ninja, and used two of your consumables to be deadly for just a moment. The wiz might be ohhhhh so slightly better than the windblade but again that's not my argument.
But.. but if Shaolin comes out needing another buff.. then I would vote windblade. In the meantime I don't think all the units on a team have to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. Unless you're Dark Elves cause that's just how they roll.
often times I feel that swording a ninja is a waste of a sword. situational though..
Am i the only one that is giving less and less equipments on my archers and ninjas and start to focus alot more on knights, wizards and clerics?
Found that having more 300dmg units is lovely to have. And when they get the upgrades instead they will become the focused targets. So when they die you will have ninjas and archers left anyways to provide dmg. The equipping still depends alot on the situation tho :)
I actually find that very interesting Hiruma, and will try it next time I play CL..I usually laugh at people who sword clerics and then end up focusing on them, sometimes losing a bit of ground (though it's quite a stomp when you get it)...and a +3 knight CAN be quite pesky especially with a cleric nearby, though I often find that to be highly situational because it just seems like a waste of a sword unless it's a cluttered board..
I'm a little surprised that the patch applied to games ALREADY IN PROGRESS. I had guys sitting on a movement tile, not they are on it no longer. I had a fully loaded paladin in range of a poisoner. Now because of the buffs and nerfs he is at risk! This change really shifted 2 of my in progress games. I would have liked to see the patch apply to new games only...







Ouch... the Axe Thrower is one case that hadn't occurred to me. Just another reason that he needs a minor nerf (150 bonus damage?). He can basically 3 shot (while unbuffed) nearly any unbuffed unit except knights.
In the meantime, the witch doc can get buffed. 66% AOE? 75%?
dont forget he oneshots 800hp units on defense tiles aswell. 3AP 1000dmg is.. alot... And got lots of uses and not only vs DE.. :(
if anyone wants to play some hero academy with me, challenge me!
nick: Ragnaok