Initial Impressions: The Shaolin
I also agree the Taoist is too weak and I think giving him 3 range is the perfect remedy (but perhaps limit 3 range to healing, and keep rez to 2, seeing as the Shadow can rez at 3 anyway). It will also allow him to get more involved in combos, which so far is proving very difficult to achieve with the lack of range and movement with Shaolin.
Have you considered the AOE healing discussed in the last few posts? 3 range healing seems like an imitation of the Dark Elf Priestess...
The problem is that giving the Taoist an AOE heal makes him somewhat unique, but doesn't fix any of the problems that the Shaolin are facing right now, at least at the level that we currently understanding the team so soon after it's release.
Saying that giving the Taoist a range 3 heal makes it too much like the Priestess is like saying that we need to change the TF Medic's heal because it's too much like the Paladin's, or that the range 2 heal available to the Cleric, Paladin, and Medic.
Giving the Taoist a range 3 heal creates a synergy with the Shadow's turning ability so that it is in potential range of heals after it is resurrected instead of stranding it at 100hp assuming the turn happens on the 4th AP (anything sooner would be pretty rare).
I'm still not sure that it is still the best solution when compared with buffing the Monk with movement-3 but a lot of that depends on Robot's design philosophy for the Shaolin and how they want to balance the Shadow's turning ability.
I think a good fix may be allowing the Shadow to also heal (range 3) and then giving the Monk movement-3. That way theres more every-turn utility available to the super unit and you don't have 3x Taoists throwing aoe heals all over the place.
Hmm, well it's true that it wouldn't be relevant to NOT change the range just because of style/the Priestess;
However, AOE Heal also helps the synergy since Shaolin team needs to cluster up to perform combos, and any AOE attacker can easily take them out faster than they can stay alive/ be healed.
Having 3x Taoists throwing AOE Heals seems fair when taking consideration of the overall weak offensive stats of the Shaolin units; they all have 200 attack so the ability to keep everyone alive while dealing SOME damage seems to be an important way to improve the team overall...
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A simple solution would be having their team bonus include giving back an AP if a 2nd or 3rd combo point is scored? There would be a cap to the bonus AP (probably cap it at 1...., 2 if changed later), and that would give the Shaolin team enough time to set up an actual combo!
Lonetrey's point about AOE healing fitting in with the Shaolin team bonus (combos) is something I hadnt thought about, and does make me think that it should be considered.
But again, to the limited extent I currently understand the team, it seems that there are some problems on the offensive end that will not be solved soley by improved healing. I dont think the Monk move buff alone will do it either . . . the Shaolin's AOE is currently very weak, maybe even weaker than Tribe's AOE (using the term weak to take into account strength AND ease of use). They can only muster truly effective AOE with 2 windblades attacking the same chain and use of a combo potion -- that is VERY conditional, and (probably) harder to pull off than effective AOE for the Tribe.
If two healers heal the same friendly unit... does the second heal get a combo bonus?
If two healers heal the same friendly unit... does the second heal get a combo bonus?
Just to be clear, while I think the Taoist is an awful healer I'm not saying he needs to be buffed. The team balance as a whole is what counts, and is a little early to be making calls on that score.
sadly I couldnt read the whole thread..., but my impressions are mixed. I love them, they are so interesting and full of sandbox experience, you can test, you find out new things many new things and so many new strategies with stealing units. On the other side, position is freaking important.. and well I am quite bad in it. lol.
One of the problems I have with shaolin, I have the feeling.. the upgrades except the sword, is not really worthy lol, but maybe its just if you play against the shaolin with shaolin xD.
When I play the shaolin, I feel like I play the DE, the monk is so freaking irritating. I always thing, why is he SO slow lol. I always really think always about more the void monk than the shaolin one lol. That the shadow has so much hp was unexpected, I thought you will have to protect him like hell, but well with 20% YES 20% magic defensive, he is with the void monk quite high defensive. Anyway, I was surprised about the low HP from the poisioner too, but with that sweet dmg its no wonder.
I will play them, till I can find a good strategy how to play with them.
Cheers,
Saying that giving the Taoist a range 3 heal makes it too much like the Priestess is like saying that we need to change the TF Medic's heal because it's too much like the Paladin's, or that the range 2 heal available to the Cleric, Paladin, and Medic.
Actually, I do think that the TF2 Medic self-heal is unfortunately similar to the Paladin, but it was a necessary evil because there are only 2 of them. Also, the Paladin aura, green-buffing-ray, and HP differences keep them feeling somewhat different. The uniqueness of each team and each unit is part of what makes HA great, and it's something that Robot works hard to do. Let's maintain that uniqueness as much as possible.
Giving the Taoist a range 3 heal creates a synergy with the Shadow's turning ability so that it is in potential range of heals after it is resurrected instead of stranding it at 100hp assuming the turn happens on the 4th AP (anything sooner would be pretty rare).
I think this would make the Shadow really OP (and I don't throw that term around lightly). I already think the shadow is the best unit in the game (better than all other supers, in my opinion). You shouldn't worry about keeping the rezed unit alive, unless it is really convenient. Think of it as stomp with an AP gain. Not only do you stomp, but they have to then kill and stomp their own unit. So, you can stomp with 1 AP and it takes them 2 AP to recover from it. If they don't counter-stomp, you just re-raise the next turn and then blast away, deep in their territory, or run the unit to safety and heal it up.
Furthermore, with the range 3 movement plus range 3 attack, the Shadow excels at setting up combos. Plus he can rez your units. Plus he's tough as hell (with magic resist, he's tougher than the chieftan!), so you can actually use him on the battlefield without being super careful all the time (give him a helm and shield). He's really the cornerstone of the Taoist offense.
I think that Shaolin just has a unique play style. You can't just build a super unit and go kamikaze. They are like the dwarves, but even more so (dwarf can kamikaze sometimes). It takes a while to build up the Shaolin war machine, and then you slowly push across the board, like an unstoppable glacier. I think a good dwarf player would totally wreck them, though. Soooo much AOE, and drills are good for threatening the Shadow.
...seeing as the Shadow can rez at 3 anyway...
Just wanted to point out that if you use the shadow to rez a champ it destroys any armor/weapons they had, be it friend or foe.
In my opinion there is one thing needed to make the Shaolin balanced and playable competitively and one thing that could work more towards the theme of the team. A considerable buff on the healer in range/%age of healing would make them work much like the "super balanced" original team the council, with more healing prowess, the units can move together to use their combos for offensive power. As for the shadow, he is somewhat balanced, yet the way they made his stats and the stats of his ability, he is not able to plausibly do what he was made for. I think reducing the Shadow's health and resist by quite a bit and improving his ability of reviving KO'd enemy units would make him the mascot super unit of the team robot set out to make. Being much less bulky and allowing for maybe 1/2 or 1/3 health revival would make it a more useful ability(might also need to decrease range some or limit how many units he can convert to make him more balanced as well). The increased revive health of Shadow converted enemies and more healing power of the Taoist would make the converted unit possible to use. It is a great idea for a super unit to be less useful itself but able to take one of the opponents units and use it against them as they planned to have the ability work. The theme and description of the Shaolin team - balanced team that turns their enemies power against them. I believe some stat changes along these lines would help the team work as they were made to, comboing teamwork and turning their units against them.
It would no doubt be harder to implement things like these as possible balance changes, but i think a cool, balanced, and usable alternate way of Shadow conversion would be to have the converted unit be transported to an open home spawn tile. You wouldn't need more revive health on conversion because the unit will be at your base and not so vulnerable to retaliation and stomping and the AP wasting retreat to safety and heal isn't very viable. Just my crazy idea, but to help the team combos more worth doing, perhaps a Relentless Action esque addition to the team bonus. Have the players rewarded for reaching 3x and upwards combos by giving an action point back upon hitting them. The times with Shaolin i reach 3x combo,(haven't even got 4 yet) but moving one or two units and attacking, adding combo potions takes up all my AP and i can't stomp or retreat or do much to capitalize, the other teams have scrolls/meat and no doubt can kill and stomp using them. Facing good players, it is really hard to use the teams temporary attack buff and have it be worth it. Probably more practical solution to this is buffing units power/bulk to make combos more viable, but i can dream can't I? Oh and dragon being less powerful but add to combo points would be cool in my opinion.
A few minor things I've noticed and disliked in question of the new Shaolin team - I believe the Taoist should not take away the combo counter if he joins in on the attack (many times i wish i could've Poisoner attack to start and then Taoist to get combo 2 and benefit from her debuff and couldn't). The Shadow can't convert enemies on their home spawn tile. And I can't see any logical reason behind being able to attack and combo your own bamboo fortress.
Unrelated to the Shaolin, i wish to be able to partial undo on challenges lol
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Ow, that wall of text. Lol
I think the Shadow is good the way he is, since he's unique and we don't want to make him into another Super with low HP. We already have the Annihilator and Wraith. As for Super units with medium and high HP, we have one in each category. I think Shadow being in the High HP category is good for diversity at the moment.
Awarding "Bonus AP" for reaching 2 or 3 combos is something I suggested before. I don't know why no one has addressed it, but I also thought this was a viable way to make combos viable rather than into a simple trade-off in units.
Auto-deployment of converted units is a new idea. I certainly haven't considered something like that before. However, I feel like it could end up cloggin the deployment tile. What if you convert two units at once and you only have 1 deployment tile open? or none are open?
Inability for conversion of units on enemy deployment tile also confused me at first. Dark Elves can create phantoms and Wraiths on deployment tiles, why not Shadows? I'm assuming it's because Wraiths can actually stand on the tiles and stop the enemy from deploying, but there's only one Wraith for Dark Elves, and if it's on the enemy deployment tile its HP must not have increased. On the other hand, Shadows can convert endlessly, so the enemy might lose because we have units on their deployment tiles!
In addition to Shaolin needing more power on move points (agree that monk needs 3) and weak combo damage,
I think the way Shaolin vs Shaolin battles favour stalemate situations should be looked at. Stalemates are boring (game needs an Offer Draw button!)
The Shaolin are severely underpowered right now. I'd consider myself a very strong Dwarf player, which means that I can effectively counter them whenever I come up against them, but right now I am playing Shaolin v Dwarf and I have never been so overwhelmed in my whole playing career.
AoE absolutely destroys Shaolin and there is almost no way of coming out ahead. My opponent just cleaned up 3 of my units (Monk, fully upgraded Poisoner and Taoist) with just a vanilla Grenadier and a scroll. I couldn't do anything at all since the Grenadier can stay so far back, so getting combos was out of the question. He just had to spam his attack as I desperately tried to regroup and heal, but to no avail.
It honestly felt like I was dealing with a fully upgraded super unit, and this was just a vanilla Grenadier.
Patch is a necessity at this point.
I think it is probably too early to be certiain Shaolin needs buffing. RE have been playing them and they must have won some games or they wouldn't have released them as they are. I am hoping we'll start figuring it out and get better.
I think, however, that the dragon should count as a combo move. It is really stange that it doesn't as it is the shaolin signature.
Yes, it is wierd that bamboo counts as a unit in the opening, especially for shoalin, whose strength is bunches. It was a weird call. Did RE decide to do that because they thought shaolin needed nerfing? Bamboo in the opening hand has already given me some difficult openings.
I like the combo concept--I believe teams should be different so if it encourages strategies that are different from other teams, that's kind of the point. but I am kind of thinking the combo bonus should be bigger, to make it more worth it.
In the ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying, the shaolin team seems ridiculous. Having 3 poisoners is like having 3 annihilators only the debuff is even better, because the poisoner can use it herself! The combo mechanic means that without a sword, any unit can do heavy damage and WITH a sword and 1 combo point, any standard unit is easily 2-shotted (not even considering the poisoner debuff).
I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed.
I think a major reason you got so much pushback was your initial suggestion that RE made shaolin super strong so everyone would buy it.
Most people on this forum simply don't believe that to be the case. Council, the free team, is still regarded as one of the strongest teams, though it is clear there isn't a single strongest team. Certain teams seem to have a slight edge over some other teams, but no team has an edge over all teams and if that was found to be the case RE would do something about it.
When people don't believe the premise for your argument, the rest of your argument is not going to be well received.
In addition to Shaolin needing more power on move points (agree that monk needs 3) and weak combo damage,
I think the way Shaolin vs Shaolin battles favour stalemate situations should be looked at. Stalemates are boring (game needs an Offer Draw button!)
Couldn't agree more. Shaolin stalemates are boring because of the team's poor offensive abilities. No one wants to risk moving out with 2-3 heroes only to have them slaughtered. Ditto for Cry Kills too. The cost of failure is too high.
The debuffs become pointless as the opponent's taoist can easily remove it. This results in sooo many poisoner back and forths which amount to nothing. Shadow's range helps a little, until your opponent has one too. Then it becomes a cycle of revived-KOs-revived-KOs.
I'm honestly quite bored by the mirrors atm, hope this gets looked into.
I think it is probably too early to be certiain Shaolin needs buffing. RE have been playing them and they must have won some games or they wouldn't have released them as they are.
Flawed argument. Robot has admitted that they have only one top shelf player, Zekers, and that he is so much better than the rest of them that the games arent close. Enough of us have played Zekers to verify that he is a top shelf talent, comparable with our top dogs, but Robot is at a major disadvantage beta testing balance without a deaper playing pool. They do a very good job, but I'm sure they would admit they cant put a team through the paces to the same degree the community can. Moroever, Robot would rather have a team be slightly too weak on release than have it be too strong and be essentially "pay to win". I'm sure Zekers suspected that some small buffs might be necessary.
Its true that its early and that the community doesnt have a great track record with its snap judgments. HOWEVER, I dont recall a virtual 100% consensus forming this quickly with any other team. There are some people saying "wait" but I dont see anyone saying that Shaolin are overpowered. This is a pretty good indication that there is something to the issue. The exact degree they need a buff may still be unclear, but I think its pretty clear they need *somehting*.
I think it is probably too early to be certiain Shaolin needs buffing. RE have been playing them and they must have won some games or they wouldn't have released them as they are.
Flawed argument. Robot has admitted that they have only one top shelf player, Zekers, and that he is so much better than the rest of them that the games arent close. Enough of us have played Zekers to verify that he is a top shelf talent, comparable with our top dogs, but Robot is at a major disadvantage beta testing balance without a deaper playing pool. They do a very good job, but I'm sure they would admit they cant put a team through the paces to the same degree the community can. Moroever, Robot would rather have a team be slightly too weak on release than have it be too strong and be essentially "pay to win". I'm sure Zekers suspected that some small buffs might be necessary.
Its true that its early and that the community doesnt have a great track record with its snap judgments. HOWEVER, I dont recall a virtual 100% consensus forming this quickly with any other team. There are some people saying "wait" but I dont see anyone saying that Shaolin are overpowered. This is a pretty good indication that there is something to the issue. The exact degree they need a buff may still be unclear, but I think its pretty clear they need *somehting*.
Makes sense.
On further thought and expereince I don't think the combo bonus is currently worth it offensively. On defense it has an effect. I will try to post more in a bit.
I'd like to sum up some recent arguments in terms of initial balance observation. For this, I try to define the problem in a general way and try to repeat some solutions given by the community.
Problem #1: The Team Bonus
The Shaolin's team bonus is hard to use properly. It feels weird and setting up combo feels unnatural for the usual flow of the game. The reasons for this are rooted in the necessity to either move forward multiple units to high-value attacking angles or just stay defensive. Due to the nature of the game, advancing into enemy territory is always more unsafe/unpredictable than staying in the own half and preparing for intruders. Also, mostly ranged units will be able to contribute to combo-setups, due to their ..well, range.
Possible solutions:
A 3-move Monk:
Pro:
- Helps to set up combos more easily
- Can plant his debuff more easily and run away
Con:
- Easy debuff planting could be too strong
A Range-3 Taoist:
NOTE: This solution could take various forms. One possibility is Heal-2 Attack-3, another Heal-3 Attack-2, or Heal-3 Attack-3.
- Being able to set up combos more easily
- Increase healing flexibility / AP usage due to less moving
- Note that this change does not notably improve AoE healing
Gaining AP while comboing:
Pro:
- Would almost certainly be a solution to the problem
Con:
- Would probably create large imbalance and unforessen problems
Problem #2: AoE Defense
The Shaolin need time to place several units into good positions to operate successfully. Early AoE damage disrupts their gameplay immensly. (Note that this is still an early stage of testing, but experience with the previous teamsfurthers this argument)
The problem is manifold: The bamboo does not prevent serious AoE damage from happening. (E.g. Grenadier, Demoman) The healing capacity of the Shaolin is not suited against dealing with AoE damage. There are few detterents stopping a AoE unit from setting up.
Possible solutions:
- The Taoist learns a new healing component, a "healing rain" so to speak: It heals the target for the usual amount and also heals targets directly adjacent to the unit for 25-30% of the healing done. (needs a clever value)
Pro:
- It would give the Taoist a not-seen-before healing nice and solve the problem.
- It can be balanced easily by tweaking numbers.
Cons:
- As always, it could prove to be good on paper but bad/too good in the game.
- Taoist 3-Heal Range: See above. Would not help the AoE problem in particular but the AP usage would get better.
Pro & Con: See Problem #1.
Problem #3: The Windblade AoE
The Windblade unit is currently seen as unreliable. It's not clear how the AoE pattern works and it's low damage outside of a combo hinders the implementation of succesful AoE. It can be derived from various comments that AoE should either have a certain ease to apply or be exceptionally strong or useful.
Possible Solutions:
- Probably just needs a number / coefficients buff. (Somehwat similiar to the old Gunner problem, which just needed some numberfixing.)
Problem #4: Weak Shadow ressurection
The shadow needs a good amount of setup to use him in attack chains, but is generally fine. The resurrected units however are very fragile to a point where it's very situational to defend them. Also, in the Shaolin vs Shaolin matchup, there is the possibility of conversion war, where each team has the opportunity to kill and convert a unit over and over again.
Possible Solutions:
- A once-ressurected unit converted by the shadow disappears after it has been k.o.-ed. (See DE phantom.)
- Units are revived with 300 HP, which needs two generic attacks or any sworded attack to be k.o-ed
Feel free to add something to the list. When there are some people contributing in a similar way, feedback is much more visible than by scrolling through the whole topic.
does anyone else dislike that you can't heal your own bamboo wall, and that it can be targeted by your own AoE attacks? i think that you shouldn't be able to target your bamboo wall at all, and that you should be able to heal it like you would any other unit since it counts as a unit
Actually, I've just had a thought.
What if the AOE problem is just issues with the Wizard and Grenadier? Can Void Monks also take out the grouped Shaolin?
I was thinking they could always implement a fix something along the lines of "Shaolin units take 20% (number to be determined) less damage from range units".
It would fit the whole Shaolin / chinese wuxia theme they've got going on here. How often do we see action movies where the main character dodge bullets, or catch arrows with their bare hands, or something like that? Perhaps this would balance out the rate at which people rely on AOE to take out the Shaolin.
Combine that with an AOE healing from Taoist, this could greatly improve their survivability. Meanwhile, other teams still have their Melee units do the same damage they usually do. My only concern is how Dwarf would factor into this. I mean, their two main offensive units are ranged....
Perhaps we can make it so that it's like, a Reverse-"Melee penalty"? Like reverse of how Archers and Grenadiers do less dmg at melee range?
Keep in mind that any changes should be obvious even to players that don't know mechanics like we do. If one, as a new player, did not gather information about balance, it would seem off to have such an odd bonus. Actual changes should be simple and elegant in design, coming down to numbers or obvious mechanical tweaks. due to this, most 'hotfix'-like changes like the one you proposed and some other over-the-top changes seem unlikely to be implemented because they cannot be communicated well enough.
but I dont see anyone saying that Shaolin are overpowered.
Well... There was that one guy who felt they were overpowered... but we concluded that he was the type to get angry about things he hadn't experienced/ did not understand
but I dont see anyone saying that Shaolin are overpowered.
Well... There was that one guy who felt they were overpowered... but we concluded that he was the type to get angry about things he hadn't experienced/ did not understand
You're not talking about the guy who claimed Shao was broke even before it was released, are you? That curmudgeon?
Nah he just got mad and started yelling at everyone who disagreed with him. He's on page 2. How'd you miss him?
Keep in mind that any changes should be obvious even to players that don't know mechanics like we do. If one, as a new player, did not gather information about balance, it would seem off to have such an odd bonus. Actual changes should be simple and elegant in design, coming down to numbers or obvious mechanical tweaks. due to this, most 'hotfix'-like changes like the one you proposed and some other over-the-top changes seem unlikely to be implemented because they cannot be communicated well enough.
Hmm, I see your point. Maybe we could apply it to only the logical Shaolin units? The ones with Martial arts, rather than the magic ones?
I can't really imagine a Shadow/Taoist dodging arrows or bullets... but on the other hand it makes sense for the Monk and Windblade. Maybe they could be unique unit traits for them rather than EVERYONE on the Shaolin team?
Nah he just got mad and started yelling at everyone who disagreed with him. He's on page 2. How'd you miss him?
By accidentally tapping "Mark all topics as read" early on. :-(
I lost my place.
So short version: I have too many other things to do to go back and respond to the criticisms of my post, but I think my general impression of "paid teams > council" is borne out by my experience enough to support the idea of new teams being released in various states of over-the-top. Dark Elf life leech is a huge gamechanger, and where council has to be careful not to overextend units without cleric support, a void monk can spend turn after turn zerging in, healing any amount of damage not enough to kill+stomp him throught aoe. Dwarves AOE + sturdy paladins makes them easier to play than council as well, tribe excels at punishing huge investment on a single unit which is almost the only way to get anywhere with council, blah blah blah.
Additionally, I feel that my opinion of the POISONER as a unit is fairly accurate, and in 90% of the games that I've started against Shaolin players they end up loading up a poisoner and ignoring combo points to do insane damage at 3 range with the 1 unit instead. That said, the healer is REALLY weak, the monk is hard to use, and the short range of the windblade makes her also of questionable value. So sure, the end result is that the Shaolin team may not be overtuned as a whole, but that doesn't make the poisoner as an individual unit well balanced. I'm not sure on what would be the best fix for the healing situation, because a lack of rez spell or potion + the low range, not exception healing of the Taoist leaves the Shaolin very vulnerable to aggressive AOE, and the Monk is hard to use with his low mobility and poor individual efficacy, etc. etc.
I agree with pretty much everything here.
The Monk absolutely needs 3 movement because he has been a dead weight for me so far. Yes, his ability is great, but it's extremely difficult to target key units with such bad movement speed. In most cases you're pretty much forced to sacrifice the Monk in order to debuff the unit you want. Furthermore, his melee range coupled with terrible movement makes him almost useless offensively. It's so rare to be able to get him involved in combos.
I also agree the Taoist is too weak and I think giving him 3 range is the perfect remedy (but perhaps limit 3 range to healing, and keep rez to 2, seeing as the Shadow can rez at 3 anyway). It will also allow him to get more involved in combos, which so far is proving very difficult to achieve with the lack of range and movement with Shaolin.
The Windblade also feels like she needs a tweek here or there, but it might just be that we haven't figured out quite how to harness her potential yet.
Overall I do like the feel of the Shaolin but they feel very clunky at the moment. The lack of fluidity from poor range and movement forces them into a defensive playstyle, which seems to go against the entire combo philosophy behind them. I guess time will tell, but I certainly feel some important changes need to be made, because at the moment their playstyle is all over the place.