Initial Impressions: The Shaolin
Okay, here goes:
You're in the wrong thread:
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Shaolin-team-literally-broken
here you go.
Immediate non-response, pointing at a parody thread about criticizing new teams, implying that anything I'm saying is exaggerated, over-the-top whining (ad-hominem attack) without addressing substance of my post
sorry to resurrect this, but hopefully if Jwallyr reads these comments he/she can come back later and approach things differently.
If you had actually posted your original comment with an air of reasonability and openness instead of just immediately attacking robot, making incorrect assertions like 'ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying', which the league data prove wrong, and 'I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed', you would have been responded to just like everyone else. You would have been responded to rationally and with respect. In this thread I've already suggested a few balance changes as have many many others since HA was released, your comment on blind loyalty to Robot is therefore clearly wrong. If you don't want to be met with hostility, don't write with hosility. If you want to have rational responses to your argument, don't write irrational arguments. It's that simple. Present your views with class, just like everyone else.
Plenty of people are now responding to your criticisms, and I hope you realise that any strongly passionate response to a team that has just been released is in the vast majority of cases rather pointless, regardless of who it's from. The poisoner does less damage than the archer, even with the debuff (although granted the difference is small) and also has a lower HP than the archer. Sure, the ability to debuff multiple enemies is great, but you have to consider this in the context of the Shaolin team as a whole. The combo version is far weaker than the scroll and there's no ranged stomp other than the bamboo. Also, the Shadow is a pretty weak super unit it seems at this point due to the 100HP rez making it pretty simple to be killed on the next turn. This counteracts the effects of the poisoner multiple debuff IMO.
Anyway, moving on, as many are, I'm also finding it hard to play aggressively with this team. Their comboing is extremely powerful but hard to set up and, it seems for now at least, mostly useful for defense. I hope the Shaolin don't become as turtley as the Dwarves pre-patch.
Since everyone else seems to have thoroughly covered the initial impressions of balance (which are always proven so accurate) I'm going to focus on the atheistic of the team. All of the units have really cool looking special attacks (taoPIST. Kung fu fighting, plauge dart? Hell yes!) and because of the combo system we get to see those special attacks a ton, which is awesome. I really like the look of the blue orbs signaling the combo rating on each unit too. Theres a lot going on the screen with shaolin and I love it. The units look nice too, the monk kinda seems like he just snorted some white powder but I don't judge, wind blade upgraded looks like an absolute badass, I always upgrade at least one cause she looks so cool. Poisoner is deffently the team hottie, and a very powerful unit as well ,although probably not superior to be a annihilator ;), taoist reminds me of Gandalf so that's a plus, and finally the shadow is possibly the coolest unit in the game. I love looking at his stat spread, it's almost....attractive.... :)
Agreed. A lot of people seem to dislike the Shaolin art style but I like it. The enemy convert animation is pretty dull but I like the extra visuals like the circling blue orbs and the poisner aura on a unit. I like the look of the units too. A little more distinction for a runemetal'd unit an a little less for that silly headgear wouldn't go amiss, but I don't really mind. I also really like the look of the Shadow.
Artwork = weak
I don't know if I stand alone when I say this but... the Shaolin teams seems very weak, and awkward to play. Mainly, to do enough damage to cause some pressure or kill an opponent, you need to use their gimmicky combo bonus. To use this... You need to bunch up like crazy. With 1 weak AoE and the dragon (which only damages 4 as opposed to possible 9 with fireball/soul feast/jack hammer) you may be able to kill one unit, but if the other team simply takes out a grenadier, void monk, pretty much any AoE and your entire team is screwed and you only killed one unit.
My first Shaolin match I was teamed vs. DE. Within 6 rounds I was so pushed back and not ready for his scrolled void monk that I forfeited.
The other annoying thing is... Shaolin vs. Shaolin... I've forfeited a few already because the match was just stupid boring. Every time both me and my opponent would send out pretty much every unit to the field, then once they were all out we'd proceed to run the poisoner out, kill one unit, retreat. Then next turn they'd red the posioner and do the same to me. It's just so difficult because the team has to stick together and none of the units really do a significant amount of damage.
I personally think that the team needs a buff, give the shadow like 350 base damage (highest base in game), I think this would at least give you some viable damage plus a range "stomp". Right now my shadow sits back and does nothing for the most part.
personally I hate the team bonus too. Really dumb with current attack range and encourages balling.
I'm a little surprise that no one has mentioned this, but perhaps no one thought it was worth mentioning.
What about a Shadow rezzing one of your downed units and then making a quick combo off of the rez'd unit and the Shadow?
Also, when the opponent takes out multiple units, like 2 or 3, then Shadow uses ranged rez to bring 2 back, and they work out a combo? Perhaps even tack on a Combo Potion to fully heal a rez'd unit and smack him with a 1-2 combo with the two rez'd units?
Seems like the Shadow is a good meatshield as well as ranged rez unit, which forces enemy players to stomp, and usually that will make or break their strategy. There are so many times where the enemy does not get cleanly away, and I avenge the fallen unit, not to mention convert the enemy fallen unit into a "Phantom-like" fodder that is rather dangerous and will force the enemy to target it first.
I don't know if I stand alone when I say this but... the Shaolin teams seems very weak, and awkward to play. Mainly, to do enough damage to cause some pressure or kill an opponent, you need to use their gimmicky combo bonus. To use this... You need to bunch up like crazy. With 1 weak AoE and the dragon (which only damages 4 as opposed to possible 9 with fireball/soul feast/jack hammer) you may be able to kill one unit, but if the other team simply takes out a grenadier, void monk, pretty much any AoE and your entire team is screwed and you only killed one unit.
My first Shaolin match I was teamed vs. DE. Within 6 rounds I was so pushed back and not ready for his scrolled void monk that I forfeited.
Feels like a legit concern... I haven't played enough with Shaolin to say much, but I'd do things differently in those situations. Instead of sending too many units, I'd work on positioning my guys into dangerous spots, which forces the enemy to move or die.
ill sum up this entire thread: the shaolin is a weak team! very weak! their combo play style is not easy to use in Hero Academy .. thus...something needs to be done if they want to remain as the weak/combo necessary team: increase combo stregnth, increase mobility, increase range, increase defense...also if ANY unit needs to be stregnthened, its the super unit (100 dmg? thats as much as the tf2 scout lmao), or the windblades AOE, which is almost pointless right now
the end
I think the shadow unit conversion needs to be improved somehow. So far, all of the converted units I've managed to snag have gotten killed and stomped on the following move. Here are two alternative ideas:
1.) Give more HP to converted units (maybe 25% of their max) and retain any buffs they have. This way they have a fighting chance of survival, and converting a buffed unit, which is harder to do, becomes more rewarding. This would also serve to make the shadow more relevant as a de facto 4th healer to rez his own units in case of emergency.
or
2.) Instead of spawning on top of the KO'd body, have the converted unit go back into the Shaolin inventory deck for later deployment, unbuffed, at full health, similar to TF2's respawn. This would make unit conversion much more strategic (eg, capturing a healer) rather than just being a more urgent and annoying version of necro's phantoms.
I want to note that it mostly comes down to good range and mobility to use the team bonus. For that matter, I think if would suffice to give the Taoist Range 3 (would make his dispel and the team bonus much more relevant) and to increase the movement of the monk to 3. These changes alone would make setting up combination attacks much more possible. I also think the 100 damage on the super is very balanced, he sould be involved in a combination attack to be awesome.
There are not much other changes I can formulate right now, other than I feel that the team's healing is very weak( another strong point for range3 on the taoist) and I don't know if the combo potion is a proper replacement for the scroll.
I think the shadow unit conversion needs to be improved somehow. So far, all of the converted units I've managed to snag have gotten killed and stomped on the following move. Here are two alternative ideas:
1.) Give more HP to converted units (maybe 25% of their max) and retain any buffs they have. This way they have a fighting chance of survival, and converting a buffed unit, which is harder to do, becomes more rewarding. This would also serve to make the shadow more relevant as a de facto 4th healer to rez his own units in case of emergency.
or
2.) Instead of spawning on top of the KO'd body, have the converted unit go back into the Shaolin inventory deck for later deployment, unbuffed, at full health, similar to TF2's respawn. This would make unit conversion much more strategic (eg, capturing a healer) rather than just being a more urgent and annoying version of necro's phantoms.
Second idea would be too hard to implement. What if they want to be recycled? What if they start clogging up the inventory?
First idea... not too bad, but also could spiral very much out of control. Imagine a team losing a sword'd and/or armor'd unit, and the Shaolin team getting it. Then the ratio of gear would be 4:2... completely unbalanced.
Also, a side note: Shadows can already act as a 4th rez-ing unit, just not a 4th healer. Not sure what you meant with the last sentence in your (1).
I want to note that it mostly comes down to good range and mobility to use the team bonus. For that matter, I think if would suffice to give the Taoist Range 3 (would make his dispel and the team bonus much more relevant) and to increase the movement of the monk to 3. These changes alone would make setting up combination attacks much more possible. I also think the 100 damage on the super is very balanced, he sould be involved in a combination attack to be awesome.
There are not much other changes I can formulate right now, other than I feel that the team's healing is very weak( another strong point for range3 on the taoist) and I don't know if the combo potion is a proper replacement for the scroll.
Yarp. All this is pretty much what I feel is the reasonable approach to balancing the Shaolin team. The 100 dmg on the Shadow is enough for those who can use the 3 range/move properly, and increasing it would only serve to allow less skilled people to use it in all situations while better players would abuse the heck out of it.
Combo potion... is eh. I feel it's like the Tribe's Haunch of Meat sort of. Which is to say, good enough for the moment.
ill sum up this entire thread: the shaolin is a weak team! very weak! their combo play style is not easy to use in Hero Academy .. thus...something needs to be done if they want to remain as the weak/combo necessary team: increase combo stregnth, increase mobility, increase range, increase defense...also if ANY unit needs to be stregnthened, its the super unit (100 dmg? thats as much as the tf2 scout lmao), or the windblades AOE, which is almost pointless right now
the end
I dont know that the super needs more damage. He already does 300 damage if he is the second hit in a combo, shots and moves at range 3 with good health.
Also, the simple 2 unit combos (such as poisoner followed by Windblade) do decent enough damage, and the poisoner does decent damage solo.
I do think your probably right that Windblade needs more AOE. Its fairly useless now and is essentially the weakest AOE of any AOE unit, AND the potion buffs damage less than a scroll. Meaningful AOE would totally change the complexion of the team, and could be too much if, as some suggests, the monk gets 3 movement.
I see a very powerful combo that seems to have been overlooked: upgraded windblades attaking afer a poisioner. Then they already have the debuff and a combo setup for massive damage. :D
Edit: if i did my math right its around 700 dmg for windblade and 200 dmg for poisoner... 2 shot abitlity!
I see a very powerful combo that seems to have been overlooked: upgraded windblades attaking afer a poisioner. Then they already have the debuff and a combo setup for massive damage. :D
Definitely not overlooked. Just too hard to set up when it's Shaolin vs. Shaolin, and for all other teams that's how most people play it already, I think.
I see a very powerful combo that seems to have been overlooked: upgraded windblades attaking afer a poisioner. Then they already have the debuff and a combo setup for massive damage. :D
So you think the ability to do 880 damage in 3 or 4 ap (depending on what starts in range) with an upgraded unit is very powerful? Granted, 2 ap is theoretically possible, but unless your on defense its unlikely. What faction cant do more than that with 1 upgraded unit in the same 3 or 4 ap? Tribe's axethrower can 3 hit a 1000 health unit. Council Archer can 3 shot a 900 health unit. Also, the combo involves both magic and phsyical damage, so if the unit is wearing either a helm or a shield, it wont KO them.
Now there is one big advantage that I excluded from the above -- you can apply the poison, and it stays after healing. But then what is your combo the following turn? Windblade first, then poisoner? That is 820. Poisoner then Windblade? That is 960 -- not bad to be sure, but considering it took you two turns with two units, one upgraded, its very underwhelming.
Its not overlooked, its just not enough without the Windblade doing better AOE. If the Windblade isnt doing good AOE, might as well just keep shooting with the poisoner, not any point to the 2 unit combo.
Its not overlooked, its just not enough without the Windblade doing better AOE. If the Windblade isnt doing good AOE, might as well just keep shooting with the poisoner, not any point to the 2 unit combo.
Actually, you just gave me an idea from what you said. What if their team bonus included giving back an AP if a 2nd or 3rd combo point is scored? There would be a cap to the bonus AP (probably cap it at 1...., 2 if changed later), and that would give the Shaolin team enough time to set up an actual combo!
So far the lack of mobility is the killer for me, as some have suggested either a range 3 taoist or a move 3 monk could just put the team into contention.
This is the first new team I have played where after two days of heavy playing I have not won a single game, not even against randoms. I am middle of the road at best against League players so Im no superstar, but I usually run 80 to 90 percent against randoms.
Shaolin is not working for me so far.
With TF2 I did very well against randoms even if i went 0-8 in the TF2 tourney, same with Dwarves and Tribe when they came out. I struggled against quality opponents but cleaned house against randoms.
This time I cant beat anyone to save my life, and the only potential win I have is against some kid playing his first game ever. I know how hard Robot works on blancing the teams before release so I know there is something I am missing, but I have not figured it out yet.
And I cant get the g@dmn Kung Fu Fighting song out of my head now either ;-)
deleted, part of accidental tripple post! (Tripple, is that a record?)
So far the lack of mobility is the killer for me, as some have suggested either a range 3 taoist or a move 3 monk could just put the team into contention.
This is the first new team I have played where after two days of heavy playing I have not won a single game, not even against randoms. I am middle of the road at best against League players so Im no superstar, but I usually run 80 to 90 percent against randoms.
Shaolin is not working for me so far.
With TF2 I did very well against randoms even if i went 0-8 in the TF2 tourney, same with Dwarves and Tribe when they came out. I struggled against quality opponents but cleaned house against randoms.
This time I cant beat anyone to save my life, and the only potential win I have is against some kid playing his first game ever. I know how hard Robot works on blancing the teams before release so I know there is something I am missing, but I have not figured it out yet.
And I cant get the g@dmn Kung Fu Fighting song out of my head now either ;-)
A lof of the lousy players are gone. The quality of randoms has continued to go up. There was a downward spike after Steam, obviously, but its headed back up now. Also, the quality of non-league members that frequent this forum is also quite good, so dont think that the stray challenges that appear are randoms -- they are not, by any means! My attention isnt what it was, but I am losing a LOT of games now -- this from someone with around a 90-40 record in league play.
deleted, double post
So far the lack of mobility is the killer for me, as some have suggested either a range 3 taoist or a move 3 monk could just put the team into contention.
This is the first new team I have played where after two days of heavy playing I have not won a single game, not even against randoms. I am middle of the road at best against League players so Im no superstar, but I usually run 80 to 90 percent against randoms.
Shaolin is not working for me so far.
With TF2 I did very well against randoms even if i went 0-8 in the TF2 tourney, same with Dwarves and Tribe when they came out. I struggled against quality opponents but cleaned house against randoms.
This time I cant beat anyone to save my life, and the only potential win I have is against some kid playing his first game ever. I know how hard Robot works on blancing the teams before release so I know there is something I am missing, but I have not figured it out yet.
And I cant get the g@dmn Kung Fu Fighting song out of my head now either ;-)
A lof of the lousy players are gone. The quality of randoms has continued to go up. There was a downward spike after Steam, obviously, but its headed back up now. Also, the quality of non-league members that frequent this forum is also quite good, so dont think that the stray challenges that appear are randoms -- they are not, by any means! My attention isnt what it was, but I am losing a LOT of games now -- this from someone with around a 90-40 record in league play.
Actually I did not consider that the quality of opposition for random matches is just better, but now that you mention it I have not seen any of the usual clueless behavior that used to be typical of random matches. (Except the afore mentioned kid playing his first game, who I am giving advice to as we play so I dont count it as a win.)
That makes it a little more difficult for me to determine what the problem is as I always struggled with new teams for the first week or so against good opponents, and I absolutely suck in TF2 mirror matches, but the TF2 team is certainly a good one.
I agree with 3 of the many suggestions in this thread and others.
1) Bamboo not a unit count for opening hand.
2) Monk movement to 3.
3) Taoist healing range to 3.
I think Shaolin may have the worst healing in the game. Any decent AOE would make recovery impossible when you're still trying to setup your combos. Having the shadow res with only 100 HP is worthless if you don't have an extra AP to heal the unit, and the combo potion is wasted on non-shaolin units. And again, with 100 HP next round AOE would just knock it down if not healed.
1.) Give more HP to converted units (maybe 25% of their max) and retain any buffs they have. This way they have a fighting chance of survival, and converting a buffed unit, which is harder to do, becomes more rewarding. This would also serve to make the shadow more relevant as a de facto 4th healer to rez his own units in case of emergency.
Second idea would be too hard to implement. What if they want to be recycled? What if they start clogging up the inventory?
First idea... not too bad, but also could spiral very much out of control. Imagine a team losing a sword'd and/or armor'd unit, and the Shaolin team getting it. Then the ratio of gear would be 4:2... completely unbalanced.
Also, a side note: Shadows can already act as a 4th rez-ing unit, just not a 4th healer. Not sure what you meant with the last sentence in your (1).
I agree it could get out of hand if you keep buffs on units, but conceptually it fits the mantra of using the other team's power against them. I was just trying to find a better balance between keeping converted guys alive, so maybe if only defensive buffs survived it would eliminate the potential for runemetal imbalance. It just seems bizarre, for example, to finally convert a 1,300+ HP wraith that ate half your team and end up with a 650 HP baby.
As to my last sentence in (1), I just meant it would make shadow's abilities more relevant to fallen friendly units (as a resurrector--which is a form of healing, if you want to be technical). Right now being able to restore a friendly unit to 100 health doesn't really provide much value and doesn't do much to bolster an already weak healing squad. Making the shadow's resurrection more powerful would also help contribute to the overall team's healing/resurrecting capabilities. That is the point I was trying to make.
I agree it could get out of hand if you keep buffs on units, but conceptually it fits the mantra of using the other team's power against them. I was just trying to find a better balance between keeping converted guys alive, so maybe if only defensive buffs survived it would eliminate the potential for runemetal imbalance. It just seems bizarre, for example, to finally convert a 1,300+ HP wraith that ate half your team and end up with a 650 HP baby.
As to my last sentence in (1), I just meant it would make shadow's abilities more relevant to fallen friendly units (as a resurrector--which is a form of healing, if you want to be technical). Right now being able to restore a friendly unit to 100 health doesn't really provide much value and doesn't do much to bolster an already weak healing squad. Making the shadow's resurrection more powerful would also help contribute to the overall team's healing/resurrecting capabilities. That is the point I was trying to make.
Even if it's only defensive buffs, the gear ratio gets heavily skewed. 4:2 ratio of anything related to equipment is automatically unfair and unbalanced.
I do like your idea about keeping buffs in the more unique situations though. Converting a Wraith shouldn't make you have to feed him all over again. An add on could be temporary buffs should be kept, like scrolls or rage.
Increased rez potential for the Shadow is also not a bad idea, though i think the debate would then center on how much HP? I think the debated range would be between 200 and 300; Strong enough so that a 200 unit can't kill it in 1 shot, but weak enough for a sword'd unit or an unit designed for dmg (such as archers or impalers) to kill. This idea only needs to increase the rez ability of the Shadow but not its offensive stat.
3) Taoist healing range to 3.
I don't think this is a great idea, because it makes the Taoist too similar to the DE priestess. How about this instead: Taoist does AOE healing, with 100% heal to the target and 25% to surrounding targets (including, possibly, himeself, if he is directly adjacent to the target). This would help the Shaolin deal with AOE, which completely wrecks them at the moment.
Of course, this is with the caveat that it is too early to judge balance. It seems right now that they are slightly under powered, but we'll have to wait and see what the league stats are like.
Interesting point... I think I like your idea more.
I like the AoE heal better than the range 3 heal. However, a range 3 heal goes better with an upgrade to range 3 attack, which would be a great way to make the combo boosts more accessible.
I don't think this is a great idea, because it makes the Taoist too similar to the DE priestess. How about this instead: Taoist does AOE healing, with 100% heal to the target and 25% to surrounding targets (including, possibly, himeself, if he is directly adjacent to the target). This would help the Shaolin deal with AOE, which completely wrecks them at the moment.
I feel like this is a step in the right direction, but the only fear I have is that it might be too similar to Tribe Shaman's Chain Healing. Course, the Taoist's AOE Healing wouldn't be able to jump, but what about considerations for AOE rezing?
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Example: Dwarf takes out 8 units all at once, due to Shaolin clumping together. Do we allow them to AOE rez everyone back and heal them all up? This would take them towards a much more defensive stance, which I feel like is hard to combine with their Combo Team bonus.
...
Hey, there's an idea! What about extending team bonus towards healing as well? AOE dmg hurts Shaolin, so to boost their healing abilities, rezing with Shadow and healing with Taoist should extend their hp to full health.
Or something. Yeah, it needs to be reconsidered. Just food for thought.
AOE healing is a unique and interesting idea that is worth exploring that differentiates from other healers and provides necessary balance. It could easily be dialed to the right amount, and reversing debuffs would only work on the primary target.
Don't downplay the Shadows ability to raise a unit even at 100 health.
It's a ranged stomp.
It forces your opponant to spend 1AP to kill it "or else."
It's a solid aggressive push into the enemy's zone and can gain you access to things otherwise out of reach (Example, turning a Heavy and then using it's range-3 to get a quick shot at a sniper so that it won't be able to snipe-attack it's next turn)
I'm sure we'll find other awesome uses of it in the future. If nothing else, it's definately a step up from the Necro's Phantom ability.
All that being said, I think that there could be better synergy if the Taoist was given a range-3 heal, but I'm not convinced it's necessary yet, especially with talks of giving the monk movement-3 which fixes other problems the Shaolin suffer from. Not sure I'd want to see them have both.
Me personally, I use my Shadow as an emergency rez, where my Taoist is too far away and I have to make do with 5 AP.
What usually ends up happening is I rez my downed unit and then we kick the crap out of whatever killed it first and bring that back as a dangerous "Phantom" that the enemy has to kill AND stomp first. Then I run the first unit I rezed back to my Taoist to heal and regroup.
Hmmm. Shaolin have *arguably* the weakest healing (remember TF2 has only 2 healers, which offsets their self-heal and the upgrade for a tempo), but this doesnt necessarily mean that buffing healing is the way to buff the Shaolin (if they indeed need a buff). TF2 has crappy healing too, but they make up for it with a deap and powerful offense.
I think that improving healing should be in the mix, but that the two offensive-oriented buffs (monk movement and windblade AOE) raised might be sufficient by themselves, or at least more important. I am not convinced a team can be well rounded, fun and competetive in all situations without meaningful AOE.
Since everyone else seems to have thoroughly covered the initial impressions of balance (which are always proven so accurate) I'm going to focus on the atheistic of the team. All of the units have really cool looking special attacks (taoPIST. Kung fu fighting, plauge dart? Hell yes!) and because of the combo system we get to see those special attacks a ton, which is awesome. I really like the look of the blue orbs signaling the combo rating on each unit too. Theres a lot going on the screen with shaolin and I love it. The units look nice too, the monk kinda seems like he just snorted some white powder but I don't judge, wind blade upgraded looks like an absolute badass, I always upgrade at least one cause she looks so cool. Poisoner is deffently the team hottie, and a very powerful unit as well ,although probably not superior to be a annihilator ;), taoist reminds me of Gandalf so that's a plus, and finally the shadow is possibly the coolest unit in the game. I love looking at his stat spread, it's almost....attractive.... :)
Challenge me on ha, ryrythecuban, I'm deceant I guess. I love tribe but I'll play a specific team if you ask