Initial Impressions: The Shaolin
I thought it was time to create the first discussion topic containing initial impressions.
So let's start:
Monk:
So far, I did not utilize his ability, but I belive it to be a strong factor in killing blocker units. However, I always feel the vibe that he should probably have movement 3, to be able to inititate attacks more easily. As of right now, he receives my defensive upgrades unless imminent advantges can be derived from equipping something else.
Taoist:
Nothing special so far, but he's standing out because of the team bonus: He is quite a useful addition in an attack chain.
Poisoner:
My favorite unit so far, mainly because she also has good solo-damage. I use her for my swords mainly. Feels quite archer-y right now. Her debuff is very handy, range 3 offers some real spamability.
Windblade:
She is a bomb and quite deadly with a combo potion.
Shadow:
Until now, he proved to be the definition of awesome! Compensating his low base damage by teaming up is good for fun and profit. :D
Combo Potion: I am worried it could not be a proper scroll replacement.
Bamboo: A very nice utility spell / ranged stomp. However, I feel it should be treated as an Item for the opening hand.
Dragon: Solid Burst AOE, should prove to be very good.
Overall Strategy: The team is once again quite a milestone of difference. I usually try to land with one "carry" unit to gain advantages on the field, this team however is mainly strong in a group. (And should be played accordingly)
The group dynamic is of course a natural disadvantage against the Dwarves, but have yet to see how severe this combination will be. On another note, I think this team will also like to turtle it's way to victory, because moving forward multiple units to utilize their bonus will be risky against offensive teams like the tribe or the council. It will be much easier to build a heavy base utilizing the bamboo and maintain various attacking angles.
Matchups:
Well, it's mostly Shalin vs Shadolin for now. Quite difficult as you have to learn (1) the new team (2) general playing against the new team and (3) playing the specific Sh vs Sh matchup
As noted above, I think Dwarves will be a bad matchup, Tribe/Council will have to build up pressure because of the turtling nature of Shao, DE should be balanced, TF2 is something I have no idea about because of their flexibility.
I worry that the team bonus is unnatural for this game, because of right now, it seems to contradict my usual playstyle. I also think some units are not very pretty artwork-wise. :-(
On the new map:
Very interesting tile, quite a brain teaser to plan around. Very subtle position advantage for the Shaolin, just like it's supposed to be.
Looking forward to your opinions! :-)
Like you, I worry about how they will do against the Dwarves. However, I note that I (and many others) had this concern with TF2, and TF2 has emmerged as arguably the strongest team, able to hold its own with the Dwarves.
I cant at present think of a reason why Shaolin would own any particular team, although as TF2 against Shaolin, double dragon plus bamboo on a healer is frightening, and cant be hidden from. This would be especially scary in League play, against a lower ranked player willing to gamble that your 2nd healer is buried.
Has anyone succeeded in going aggressively with Shaolin, utilizing their team bonus effectively? Seems like its a lot of cautious posturing now, I'm trying to get my units into location to execute something, and my opponent is moving around trying to circumvent that and execute his own combo.
Like you, I worry about how they will do against the Dwarves. However, I note that I (and many others) had this concern with TF2, and TF2 has emmerged as arguably the strongest team, able to hold its own with the Dwarves.
I cant at present think of a reason why Shaolin would own any particular team, although as TF2 against Shaolin, double dragon plus bamboo on a healer is frightening, and cant be hidden from. This would be especially scary in League play, against a lower ranked player willing to gamble that your 2nd healer is buried.
Keep in mind that we are now judging TF2 after a Sniper balancing adjustment which, I believe, has been the difference in turning them from a decent team to one of the most dangerous. My initial impression is that the Shaolin are going to give TF2 a lot of trouble, both because of the Medic sniping potential and the ease of Shadow-turning. Dwarves will be an interesting test, and I expect the Monk's debuff to be crucial in that matchup.
The poisoner debuff + dragon + bamboo combo is alredy proving to be very effective.
I do agree with the OP that maybe the monk should have three movement. At the moment, to me it feels like a weaker version of the knight. It's weaker and hard to use offensively, and also it's hard to combo with. Maybe it will prove to be better than I think once I begin how to use him better though.
The shadow may prove to be useless in most cases against a good player because it'd be so hard to KO a unit, convert it, and then heal it to a meaningful amount as to protect it from a counterattack. Time will tell as to whether the Shadow's rez needs to be buffed a little (maybe rez to 300 HP or something).
The poisoner is a great unit at the moment. It's very useful to spam her debuff and opposing teams have pretty much no defense to it. Her range is great and her attack okay (she definitely seems the unit to runemetal at the moment). She's not too powerful though thanks to her (necessary, I think at the moment) low HP.
Not sure about the Windblade yet. Her attack pattern is similar to the wizard's in terms of a percieved randomness (although of course there will be a pattern just not deciphered yet). She isn't as far-reacher as the wizard but probably has a better AoE.
I'm also thinking that the team might prove to be very turtley. This is slightly couteracted by the highly agressive poisoner, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see some method of encouraging aggression (like the pally aura) in the future.
A mostly balanced team I think. Time will tell whether it needs a small buff buy I think it might. Maybe not though, I don't think anyone understands this team enough yet to say for sure either way.
The team's really weak without the shadow. Keep him alive - it's not hard if you're careful, his stats are insane.
Has anyone succeeded in going aggressively with Shaolin, utilizing their team bonus effectively? Seems like its a lot of cautious posturing now, I'm trying to get my units into location to execute something, and my opponent is moving around trying to circumvent that and execute his own combo.
I was wondering the same thing, it seems like u have to be defensive in order to have multiple units around to activate this ability. Maybe you have to use the windblade chain with a bamboo to get the passive to work??? beats me
Also, is it me, or did anyone expect the Shadow to be so tanky....
I really love the super unit. The stats are great and his 20% initial MagicResist make him very durable when combined with shield/helm. I also love 3mov/3range! He's my go-to attack chainer when available. Like a necro on steroids. :D
I have less fun playing the monk, he's really slow and clumsy, I really think 3 move should be implemented. I want to be careful not to compare apples and oranges, but he's nowhere near as usable as a void monk, so giving him that buff would probably do no harm. It would make placing his 'anti-heal' debuff that much easier. The next days will show whether this proposed change will make sense i guess.
Taoist, Shadow, Windblade, Poisoner and Dragon/Potion/Bamboo slowly fall into their desired places for me.. but I really don't know about the Monk yet. :-/
Remember, most are playing Shaolin v. Shaolin now. Monk isnt great there as the Taoist can remove the debuff. I think the Monk will much more important against Dwarves, DE and Council, where you will gladly dive in with a Monk if your opponent doesnt have enough AP to kill it and get his debuffed +3 unit to safety. There will kind of be some tension between leaving him gearless or not, might depend on the situation. Against the Tribe, I dunno, a high health 0 resist dude is just so much meat to an axethrower unless you give him a shield -- so maybe you do that. Against TF2, I dont see too much use except against the heavies, but its still a 1000 health unit.
The Monk is the go-to gear unit for me (not runemetal). The Shadow and poisoner should be kept safe in the back, so for them I don't think the sheild and helm is that good (and even with the shield and helm, the poisner is still very squishy). Maybe give it to the Windblade, but the shield and helm on the Monk is only slightly worse than the knight in terms of defense, and the knight is great.
Thrilled to see a new team, but I am having the hardest time yet getting my head around these guys. It seems like a very differnt playstyle, almost diametricaly opposed to the TF2 team, yet the defenses are neither as strong nor as straightforward as the dwarves.
I am thinking this team will have the higest learning curve of all the teams, and at the moment I dont see them being a favorite for me, but it is way to early to make any determinations.
I am having fun with a new team, and was not expecting it at all so its all good news for me.
Keep in mind you can gear units your Shadow steals, so don't use it too soon.
Also, does anyone know if the Shadow's converted minions retain gear?
Oh, and the Taoist cannot remove Engineer-buffed TF2 units attack bonus. So what buffs is it talking about? Scrolls/Meat? Beer? Pally Aura? Mana Vial's 50 HP?
And you can attack your own bamboo. Interestingly, when you try to combo attack it, a Taoist removes any combo bonus built before the Taoist attacks, but adds 1 combo bonus. So attack with him first to keep the combo going. Other than that 1 rare instance, I don't think attack order matters when comboing. I had 1 runed windblade, 1 normal, and got either 300+400 damage or 200+500 when I reversed the order. Maybe it'll matter on the 3rd hit, I don't know.
@Omelethead, the convertd units dont keep gear
i also agree the monk should have 3 movement. He has a bery powerful debuff, but its not very useful if its not accessible.
On the subject of matchups, i think Shaolin might be its own best matchup. The taoist obseletes both the poisoners and monks debuff, while other teams must suffer with them. To early to know for sure, but thats my prediction
Oh, and the Taoist cannot remove Engineer-buffed TF2 units attack bonus. So what buffs is it talking about? Scrolls/Meat? Beer? Pally Aura? Mana Vial's 50 HP?
Definitely doesn't remove Pally aura, not sure about the others.
Yeah, I didn't see how it could affect pally aura, not without some crazy bug-inducing coding.
Bubbles maybe? Attacks through them?
Yeah, I didn't see how it could affect pally aura, not without some crazy bug-inducing coding.
Bubbles maybe? Attacks through them?
It just affects temporary buffs and debuffs -- Priestess debuff, Annihilator debuff, Jarate, pre-scrolls, etc...
It just affects temporary buffs and debuffs -- Priestess debuff, Annihilator debuff, Jarate, pre-scrolls, etc...
Oh yeah, prejarate is a waste of an item against them. Not that they have anyone on the destructive level of wraiths vms or ninjas
There are tons of debuffs, but I was trying to figure out which buffs it affected. Scrolls make sense, but what else? Do Taoists ignore Beer when attacking? Bubbles seem like a possibility, though small. Meat/sandvich make sense, but what about the Mana Vial? I almost would have thought TF2 Engy upgrades would be removable, but they aren't. Does it affect units with a pocket Medic, or break the link (when not attacking the medic)?
There are tons of debuffs, but I was trying to figure out which buffs it affected. Scrolls make sense, but what else? Do Taoists ignore Beer when attacking? Bubbles seem like a possibility, though small. Meat/sandvich make sense, but what about the Mana Vial? I almost would have thought TF2 Engy upgrades would be removable, but they aren't. Does it affect units with a pocket Medic, or break the link (when not attacking the medic)?
Wanna check on it? For science
I'd love to. My name is the same in-game as here. I was also just wondering if the Shadow can convert downed units on both enemy deploy tiles, and shut down their opponent.
Invite me. I am at my limit at the moment. Also what things do you want to check on.
Gentlemen, 40/40 VMs. These bad boys have 1600 effective health unless I have terrible math skills. Anyway I have one. Gonna send this virtually unkillable badboy on a spree.
In the ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying, the shaolin team seems ridiculous. Having 3 poisoners is like having 3 annihilators only the debuff is even better, because the poisoner can use it herself! The combo mechanic means that without a sword, any unit can do heavy damage and WITH a sword and 1 combo point, any standard unit is easily 2-shotted (not even considering the poisoner debuff).
I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed.
In the ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying, the shaolin team seems ridiculous. Having 3 poisoners is like having 3 annihilators only the debuff is even better, because the poisoner can use it herself! The combo mechanic means that without a sword, any unit can do heavy damage and WITH a sword and 1 combo point, any standard unit is easily 2-shotted (not even considering the poisoner debuff).
I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed.
You're in the wrong thread:
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Shaolin-team-literally-broken
here you go.
In the ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying, the shaolin team seems ridiculous. Having 3 poisoners is like having 3 annihilators only the debuff is even better, because the poisoner can use it herself! The combo mechanic means that without a sword, any unit can do heavy damage and WITH a sword and 1 combo point, any standard unit is easily 2-shotted (not even considering the poisoner debuff).
I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed.
It's kind of like a team that can have a unit do upwards of 2k damage on a single attack to a crystal. Or a team with a unit that does TONS OF DAMAGE, while remaining unkillable, or one team having two of these units. Or a team having the ability to remove defence upgrades from enemies. Or a team being able to 1 shot just about any unit from the other side of the map. Or a team that gains 50% + dmg if you stomp them. Or a team that can res 3 people at once. Or a team that can res a unit from literally the other side of the map.
Unfortunately these things do not exist in a vacuum.
are there any good tactical tips emerging for Shaolin? so far I seem to do fairly well against Dwarfs, but get creamed by all other non-Shaolin teams
http://www.robotentertainment.com/forum/topic/Shaolin-team-literally-broken
here you go.
:D
One thing's for sure: if the Windblade doesn't get a new hat, I quit.
In the ongoing theme of making over-the-top teams to spur buying, the shaolin team seems ridiculous. Having 3 poisoners is like having 3 annihilators only the debuff is even better, because the poisoner can use it herself! The combo mechanic means that without a sword, any unit can do heavy damage and WITH a sword and 1 combo point, any standard unit is easily 2-shotted (not even considering the poisoner debuff).
I'm not surprised, but I am certainly disappointed.
It's kind of like a team that can have a unit do upwards of 2k damage on a single attack to a crystal. Or a team with a unit that does TONS OF DAMAGE, while remaining unkillable, or one team having two of these units. Or a team having the ability to remove defence upgrades from enemies. Or a team being able to 1 shot just about any unit from the other side of the map. Or a team that gains 50% + dmg if you stomp them. Or a team that can res 3 people at once. Or a team that can res a unit from literally the other side of the map.
Unfortunately these things do not exist in a vacuum.
Every situation you mention has either a consumable involved, or is simply incorrect. Also, you failed to actually address the substance of what I said in the first place. I think having (essentially) 3 of another team's super unit is a valid concern. No, they don't have knock back, but the annihilators doesn't do significant splash damage in the first place nor does he gain benefit from combos. Having 3 units with a BETTER than annihilator buff with 3 range is a big deal.
Im finding the supposed super unit "shadow" pretty useless so far. As Mr who said after you rez up the unit, theyre so weak your in defensive mode already if you really want to save that unit in retreating and wasting valuable moves.(plus you lose all your gear) so is it really worth it to save your unit? I guess time will tell but reviving the enmies super unit then using against them may be deadly but only if they let them selevs in that situation.
all of my Shaolin vs. shaolin games right now are basically stalemates lol...a. because nobody knows what they are doing, and b. because the taoist can basically remove every advantage/unique ability shaolin has...it's very difficult playing shaolin vs. shaolin
I am playing one game vs. council, and I can proudly say that I am only winning because the other guy is terrible lol...if he knew what he was doing he would be destroying me right now...whether that is a detriment to shaolin abilities or just a lack of my experience with shaolin i don't know yet
but i am much more interested in seeing how shaolin stacks up against other teams, rather than shaolin vs shaolin (which are basically the only games i can find right now when i choose them)
i too am afraid that shaolin is not fit to compete with other teams due to their EXTREMELY different playstyle