Here's my concern with buffing ...
So the general consensus seems to be that the Shaolin are underpowered, generally speaking, I would agree, and in any case, the numbers don't lie. While I'm not a member of the league (haven't bothered to figure out how it works or where to join or what), assuming the quoted forum numbers are right, it seems obvious that the Shaolin are not competitive with the previous teams.
HOWEVER
My concern with buffing the Shaolin is not that they aren't in bad shape, but that the team itself is so lopsided from the start! As has been noted previously, the Monk and Windblade are lackluster offensive units, while the buff/debuff removal ability of the Taoist is so situational as to be irrelevant in most matchups. On the other hand, the Poisoner is an offensive powerhouse (although a little more frail than most base units) while the Shadow is essentially unkillable, with high range and mobility, and is able to steal opponents' units and even resurrect (minus equipment) fallen Shaolin units!
A similar imbalance (WITHIN the team, that is) occurs in the consumables. It appears that the combo point potion is lackluster, failing to match up in damage to scrolls while requiring that the unit in question be highly damaged or else you waste the healing portion of the item. On the other hand, the dragon is capable of IMMENSE damage in its row, and when doubled up and combined with a bamboo can be used to kill+stomp healers in the back row of the opponent's base area with zero setup, which can be crippling (particularly against TF2 with limited Medics, a Tribe team whose Shamans are buried in the deck, etc.).
Short version: The things that the Shaolin has that work are GREAT, verging on (if not actually being) overpowered, while everything else they have is TERRIBLE. While the net effect is that the team as a whole stumbles all the way from the start to finish, I would like to see buffs to the underpowered stuff (Taoist, Windblade, Monk, Combo Potion) AND mild nerfs to the ridiculous stuff (double dragon + bamboo on a healer in the back isn't fun, isn't skillful, and shouldn't be possible; poisoner debuff is overtuned IMO; Shadow is virtually unkillable AND high range? Usually you have to pick one or the other, see: Archer vs Knight) to achieve a better sense of balance within the team.
Thoughts?
While I fundamentally disagree with your characterization of the Archer as a "star" (IMO she's a "good" ranged unit on an otherwise lackluster team, but that's a whole seperate issue), even within your description of the "all above average units" team vs "a few star units & rest are decent support" team it makes sense for the Shaolin to be made up of good, but not outstanding units. The combo bonus means you're supposed to use multiple units together, right? Having the Windblade (just for instance) be great and the other units be average (or even strong 'role' players, like the Monk being a better meat shield or something?) doesn't encourage teamwork between units, whereas having decent units all-around does.
as more I play with the shaolin as more I find out, how dangerous they are.
I just stomped a 1080hp wraith with 2 attacks, he was pre poisioned. potion + poisioner + second poisioner + bamboo. The wraith had magical amor.
I think they are a mix out of tribes and council.
While I fundamentally disagree with your characterization of the Archer as a "star" (IMO she's a "good" ranged unit on an otherwise lackluster team, but that's a whole seperate issue), even within your description of the "all above average units" team vs "a few star units & rest are decent support" team it makes sense for the Shaolin to be made up of good, but not outstanding units. The combo bonus means you're supposed to use multiple units together, right? Having the Windblade (just for instance) be great and the other units be average (or even strong 'role' players, like the Monk being a better meat shield or something?) doesn't encourage teamwork between units, whereas having decent units all-around does.
Thats a pretty good argument, maybe a combo team should be 5 above average units with no stars. In practical terms though, Robot is likely to make 1-3 tweaks rather than readjust the whole team, which they have never done.
I didnt mention the bamboo thing in your first post. I agree that double dragon plus bamboo against tf2 on your first turn is a very undesirable thing to have in the game, but I dont really know how to fix it without redoing the whole team. I dont think its worth double dragon plus bamboo on the healer of another team -- but I suppose its undesirable to let someone take that gamble.
to use up both dragons and a bamboo to take out a healer would be effective, but its also a big lose for the Shaolin player, too. I mean, they just blew all of their dragons and half of their bamboo that they'll never get back.
to use up both dragons and a bamboo to take out a healer would be effective, but its also a big lose for the Shaolin player, too. I mean, they just blew all of their dragons and half of their bamboo that they'll never get back.
Right, I think its only a smart play against TF2. Even there its not entirely clear it will work out for ya -- with Shaolin's weak AOE, TF2 might be able to bury the final healer and do ok. I'm just saying that, other things being equal, I agree with the OP that is undesirable that this move exists.
That double dragon + bamboo thing is the Pulverizer discussion all over again. Is it fair to have a drill fall out of the sky on your uber powerful carefully nurtured Wraith and kill-stomp him in 5 AP? I don't know, maybe not, but we have learned to live with it. Is it fair for the Dwarves to have what seems 4 "free" kills? The SL have one truly "free" kill by comboing almost all of their great consumables. Doesn't seem a big deal to me, especially considering the state the SL is in right now. Maybe after a buff we can talk about this, but changing multiple things, buffing here, nerfing there, all in the same update, is very risky, IMHO
My problem with the shaolin is the movement, the combos are visciuos, but it's difficult to be defensive and use the combos with most of the teams having great ranged units. Offensively, using the combos sucks when units like the monk can only move one 2 spaces. I think if the monk could move 3 spaces, he could be used more affectively with combos with the poisoner. It's difficult to decide how to buff these guys, as i haven't played against every team with them, (haven't against Team Fortress 2, and dwarves)
Dwarves can also auto kill something, drop two drills, or drill ands scroll. Okay they have to walk over to stomp it, but the two teams are similar in this regard. Three cnsumables is a lot, and double dragon is really going to hurt them later. If they spent 3 consumables to kill one guy, you can get at least two more like it again with your remaining two shields, two helms and two remaining swords. The next time you make a power unit, they won't be able to auto kill it... And that gives you security which gives you an advantage. You can deploy and play a lot more aggressively once the opponent is out of scrolls/drills/dragons.
if you want to defend against it, it's the same as playing dwarves, tf2 etc. if you don't want to loose your key guy to jarate, just make sure you spread some of your upgrades around. And don't ever out all your key guys in a line, and even betterm force the opponent, via pressure, to use dragons on your less important guys by making those the threat via positioning.
hope this helps!
There is clearly some truth to what your saying, but the poisoner, as deadly as she is, is not necessarily better than the archer (I'd say its close but definitely pick archer), and the Dragon isnt necessarily better than the Drill (close but I'd probably pick the dragon). Its fine for the team to have some stars. But the team cant be stars + scrubs and be competetive, just like a team cant be all stars and not be OP. All folks are trying to do with the buffs is get to something like stars + strong roll/situational players. It seems to be that your trying to get to something like a well balanced team with 5 average or slightly above average players. Some of the other teams are kind of built that way, Dark Elves, for example, while some are like Council, stars + situationally strong roll players (archer vs wizard + knight).