Further thought on balance
I once played a parody game where a sword had 33+2i attack rating, Although I didn't know what that was at the time. :D I wonder if it was actually hardcoded in some way to affect something, but it probably was just a clever easter egg. (the desc. text also featured something imaginary)
In regard to balance, a lot of clever points have been made. The strongest arguments I want to support:
- Find a good place for aoe in the Tribe, I want the witch to be useful for some aoe again
- Please don't overdo it nerfing dwarves, they once were quite useless and that place also wasn't much fun..
- I'd still like the Wraith to feed on the corpse he spawns on, as he would be far more useful against good players
- As a means to weaken TF2 I'd like the removal of the Medics selfheal. Makes them much more managable and is in line with their "waste us for attacking important stuff" playstyle
- Shaolin: Please rethink the whole teaming up bonus: The playstyle is awkward right now. Its hard to use the team bonus properly for reasons stated in the Impressions topic. Move3 for the Monk would be much appreciated, because melee units in this game need to be either really powerful (Spy, Warrior) or really mobile (Void Monk, etc) to be effective.
EDIT: I'd also like to discuss a range3 Taoist, he is very parallel to the DE's Priest in the manner that you can use him offensivly for some effect. In fact I am quite certain that combined with the beforementioned mov3 buff for the monk, this would solve the issues with the team bonus being really hard to use properly, because the added attack angles from the monk and taoist are probably enough to make combos possible more often. It also would make a fairly mediocre healer somewhat more usable.
The Shaolin :
I have problem with this team, it seems like this team has more turtle power then the dwarfs .. how? you cannot engage on them, the combo mechanic makes shaolin damage insane high when they are together. means you cant send nothing in without it dying instantly (in worst case your unit will be stolen and turned against you). iam playing tribe mostly and so far the only way for me to break shaolin is to wait for a mistake then go in with cheiftain and try to k.o 2-3 units.
didnt tried yet to play with a poke team like the council, which i guess will work better. the only tanky unit is the monk for shaolin and they dont have all the shields and defensive buffs like the dwarfs. hopefully the archers can dismantle this team slowly but surely.
I think the wraith should do something when he eats bodies after the initial charging time like a large heal or a +50 temp boost to attack
He really shouldn't eat the body he spawns on it would mean that noone would deploy him normally
Would that be so bad? It's a nice touch and makes the wraith come to life with some use at least.
My main concern for Shaolin is still Taoist +1 Range and Monk +1 Movement. I think this will solve some problems with setting up combos and will make healing slightly better. What I would really like to see is the following: The taoist heals a unit for the usual amount and units adjacent to that unit for 25% of that amount. (like a healing rain) It would help to make the (potentially evil) dwarven matchup more balanced, he would benefit greatly even from a sword and it would put their healing in a good place. Note that 50% healing is too much, he should not be as effective as a Shaman in my opinion.
However, seeing that robot mostly likes to tweak numbers instead of mechanics (paladin auras excluded) this is probably never going to see the loght of day.
Would that be so bad? It's a nice touch and makes the wraith come to life with some use at least.
My main concern for Shaolin is still Taoist +1 Range and Monk +1 Movement. I think this will solve some problems with setting up combos and will make healing slightly better. What I would really like to see is the following: The taoist heals a unit for the usual amount and units adjacent to that unit for 25% of that amount. (like a healing rain) It would help to make the (potentially evil) dwarven matchup more balanced, he would benefit greatly even from a sword and it would put their healing in a good place. Note that 50% healing is too much, he should not be as effective as a Shaman in my opinion.
However, seeing that robot mostly likes to tweak numbers instead of mechanics (paladin auras excluded) this is probably never going to see the loght of day.
I have actually been thinking about AOE healing for awhile now, but as a consumable "health bomb" instead. Maybe this could be in the next team somehow.
Double post, but anyway: BUFF THEIR HEALING IN SOME SHAPE WAY OR FORM, PLEASE!!
Here is a very subtle buff for Tribe that I think in most cases would not have a material impact but could be critical in fixing the balance between Tribe v. TF2.
The proposal is to change the Meat so that it also provides a 10%/10% physical and magical resistance for the next hit (a watered down beer, essentially). The important thing this does is reduces the number of hits it takes a 300-attack TF2 unit to take down an 1,100-HP Chieftan with jarate. Currently (300*2.75)+300 = 1,125. This small change would make two hits (300*2.65)+300 = 1,095.
Right now it makes no difference if the attacker is 300 or 390 (both are two hit kills with jarate). My change would allow the Tribesman to partially counter-act pre-applied jarate with a meat in circumstances where TF2 did not have an engineer in place. Council has the wizard's 30% resistance (and ninja bombing abilities for wizard's), DE has monster HP monk/wraith abilites, Dwarves have bubbles and beer-medicine, but Tribe is left without much real defensive measures of any kind against pre-applied jarate.
This is especially critical with the new de-sandvich nerfing of tidal wave.
Another alternative to this idea would be to make the resistance of the meat even more powerful (maybe 30%), but have it expire once the attack is made, and vice versa the attack capability would expire if damage is incurred. Thus the Chieftan would have to decide if he wants to use his meat with an attack or hold onto its red glow as a defensive measure. This would obviously have much broader implications for the meat as a defensive item for the Tribe in many circumstances, and ruin it as a pre-armed attack. The first idea is more a surgical fix, whereas this alternative is a wholesale change with broad implications.
Cool well thanks for all your counter-input! Insightful as always. Good to see more sides of it. I don't know how you play in the League Trip (and its a shame we can't watch replays in this game... a sad missing feature!) -- but in my experience a strong TF2 player (and I can think of a few names) are not only good at being on the offense, but also good at doing build-ups / turtles.
TeamTurtle
It is not easy to attack TeamTurtle when their guys are expendable. A Void Monk will need 1AP to engage, 1AP to retreat, and that's assuming your target is within 3 squares of where he starts (A smart TF player will modify his positions to give you bunk-targets). With 3AP to spare you can KO a guy (900 damage), but not kill it. With one or two medics in the field, but clustered behind the front-target, he can heal the target right back up, and himself in the process if you were splash-damaging the medic. If you use a scroll, you have 1 extra AP, so you can stomp the unit that was at the front, and then retreat. But thats 1 scroll for one guy, and they will reheal, selfheal and just put a new guy at the front. You're scrolls are just as vita as their jarates and with the 1200 Heavies you need either scrolls, or buffed Impallers to deal with them.
Meanwhile, the TF2 has APs to spare and can bring out yet more guys (making for a swarm), continue to upgrade guys, and position a key unit (like rockets, or snipper, or grenades) on the attack-tile ready to be power-pumped by the medic. Again, I've seen many times that critical unit be thrown on the attack-tile only to be charged up so as to make any attack you do be very limited in effect. Spies can hold your flanks by limiting your ability to use ranged against them, further closing off their weakspots from an attack.
Naturally it gets hard to talk specifics because each game creates unique situations, but I have seen time and again TF2 opening up with an immediate Turtle play rather than being agressive, and then forcing you, the attacker to either commit and waist guys, or watch your crystals be slowly erroded at range. if you ignore the TF2 while they build up, they will upgrade all of their guys to 260 / 390 which is --not-- irrelevant, and set up a quite impossible blockade around the middle of the map.
Most TF2 players that are worth their badge won't waist their Jarrate unless it is crucial to do so, so just trying to "suck out" a jarate will often cost you your key unit (that buffed VM or Impaller?). The best defense against the Jarate is to spread your upgrades, but this also reduces your viability in turn. TF2 can crystal hunt far better than DE's for example, so you are not fighting an equal battle.
In some games you don't get a medic till late, cause you only got two of them. Does that mean TF2 auto loses? Well a lot of players will try to speed-through their deck until they get at least one (and a rez-spell) and use what they have to just go on the offensive. Do they auto lose those matches? Hardly, they do just fine if their medics don't appear immediatly. Letting the medics self-heal 50% gives them the same capability as the Dwarf Paladins, and it just isn't right that they can save APs with their ability to self-heal themselves. If the TF2 and the opponent are playing a slow game of attrition, it should be up to the TF2 to put pressure on the offensive rather than to be able to camp-out and prepare all their units with upgraded 260/390 guys (which might counter armor upgrades and DE health gains, making them less useful vs. TF2).
I don't know if HeroAcademy has a test server, for balance, but I'd really like to know or see if a 25% self-heal change to the medics could be tried out, as I think that would really change the flavor of the team to be pure-offensive and be the one and only change probably that is required to make the team far more balanced. At 25% self-heal, their clock is ticking... they have to keep on the offensive, and that's what their team is all about.
Tribe
As for the Tribe being top pre-patch, I didn't think that's what the stats showed, my understanding was that they were about the same as other teams, but that players found the 100% explosion to be "not fun" because it would penalize bad moves too heavily (especially for new players) and thus what was done was a "reconfiguration" rather than a strict nerf. Hence why the axe thrower got a buff at the same time the witch got a nerf.
As stated many times here and elsewhere though, it was a nerf of their AOE for a buff of their max-damage to a single-target output. In my mind, if the witch explosion had to be toned down, it wasn't the axe thrower that had to be buffed, but the Chieftans instead. Swap one AOE for another. This change shifted the balance and play style of the team quite heavily for the worse. So I would really prefer to see the axe thrower reduced to +100 or +150, the witch increased to 66% or 75% so that it is at least "useful", and the Chieftan get more area damage, I think it is 66% right now, this could be increased to 75%. Three small changes, but it would increase their ability to have some "reliable" AOE as well as a witch that still wasn't relegatred to stiring the coldron's stew at the back.
IMHO any change to them has to be purely damage-increases, not health or armor buffs, they can already chain heal, so they need to remain as offensive as possible, if they need more "umph" it should be in terms of more damage output, not defenses. Otherwise they will loose their distinct playstyle.
Shaolin
The team is really interesting and I keep still discovering new things with it, like the fact that they are incredibly strong at crystal rushing... you can drop a Bamboo on the crystal tile and go suicidal on the enemies crystal and they can't both kill your guy AND the bamboo in the same turn (most of the time). So you really don't have to sit-back and wait for the enemy to engage you to get multi-combos. This might even be *thee* main way to play them... but I can't say yet as I need to try it out more.
They are not alone in needing combos... Tribe also need combos, Axe thrower and Warrior are a combo and then Witch is the Finish.
The one thing so far that seems very tough for the Shaolin is healing and AOE attacks against you. You're not as good as Concil, you can't suck like like the Dark Elves, you are not expendable like the TF2, you can't chain-heal like the Tribe and you don't have Engineer bubbles and lots of armor buffs and tile buffs and self-healing paladins like the Dwarves. In fact, your healing is probably worst in the game, second only to the TF2 who aren't really a very "normal" team anyways. In a few games I gave one of my sword upgrades to my healer just so that I could heal 600 per AP as otherwise you just fall behind too quickly. It is good though that each team has a weakness, makes picking a team that much more interesting.
On the flip side... you can convert enemy guys to your side, which is VERY powerful if you can set it up. This might make up for the lack of strong healing. I've played about 20 games with them thus far, and I'm only starting to see now who you need to be focusing on and what your potential end-game win conditions are. Getting a duo of Windblades can be great as they can combo-together to get a lot of AOE damage. If the opponent can't counter AOE attack you can set up for rezing their guys with your Shadow... its a viable end-game strategy that could really pay off. The threat of your combos and Shadow rezing also furthers your ability to go for a crystal kill... so it really has a great potential as a possible A / B plan.
Shaolin are all about taking a square, securing it and then using the next guy to take the next square forward, covering the first guy. Creeeping out towards the crystal or an isolated enemy. You can certainly harass with the Winblade/Poisoner (Monk maybe, but he moves too slow to do so), which is also viable, but I see that as the option you resort to when your border cant expand anymore and instead you have to "weaken" the edge of their teritory.
Cool well thanks for all your counter-input! Insightful as always. Good to see more sides of it. I don't know how you play in the League Trip (and its a shame we can't watch replays in this game... a sad missing feature!) -- but in my experience a strong TF2 player (and I can think of a few names) are not only good at being on the offense, but also good at doing build-ups / turtles.
TeamTurtle
It is not easy to attack TeamTurtle when their guys are expendable. A Void Monk will need 1AP to engage, 1AP to retreat, and that's assuming your target is within 3 squares of where he starts (A smart TF player will modify his positions to give you bunk-targets). With 3AP to spare you can KO a guy (900 damage), but not kill it. With one or two medics in the field, but clustered behind the front-target, he can heal the target right back up, and himself in the process if you were splash-damaging the medic. If you use a scroll, you have 1 extra AP, so you can stomp the unit that was at the front, and then retreat. But thats 1 scroll for one guy, and they will reheal, selfheal and just put a new guy at the front. You're scrolls are just as vita as their jarates and with the 1200 Heavies you need either scrolls, or buffed Impallers to deal with them.
Meanwhile, the TF2 has APs to spare and can bring out yet more guys (making for a swarm), continue to upgrade guys, and position a key unit (like rockets, or snipper, or grenades) on the attack-tile ready to be power-pumped by the medic. Again, I've seen many times that critical unit be thrown on the attack-tile only to be charged up so as to make any attack you do be very limited in effect. Spies can hold your flanks by limiting your ability to use ranged against them, further closing off their weakspots from an attack.
Naturally it gets hard to talk specifics because each game creates unique situations, but I have seen time and again TF2 opening up with an immediate Turtle play rather than being agressive, and then forcing you, the attacker to either commit and waist guys, or watch your crystals be slowly erroded at range. if you ignore the TF2 while they build up, they will upgrade all of their guys to 260 / 390 which is --not-- irrelevant, and set up a quite impossible blockade around the middle of the map.
Most TF2 players that are worth their badge won't waist their Jarrate unless it is crucial to do so, so just trying to "suck out" a jarate will often cost you your key unit (that buffed VM or Impaller?). The best defense against the Jarate is to spread your upgrades, but this also reduces your viability in turn. TF2 can crystal hunt far better than DE's for example, so you are not fighting an equal battle.
In some games you don't get a medic till late, cause you only got two of them. Does that mean TF2 auto loses? Well a lot of players will try to speed-through their deck until they get at least one (and a rez-spell) and use what they have to just go on the offensive. Do they auto lose those matches? Hardly, they do just fine if their medics don't appear immediatly. Letting the medics self-heal 50% gives them the same capability as the Dwarf Paladins, and it just isn't right that they can save APs with their ability to self-heal themselves. If the TF2 and the opponent are playing a slow game of attrition, it should be up to the TF2 to put pressure on the offensive rather than to be able to camp-out and prepare all their units with upgraded 260/390 guys (which might counter armor upgrades and DE health gains, making them less useful vs. TF2).
I don't know if HeroAcademy has a test server, for balance, but I'd really like to know or see if a 25% self-heal change to the medics could be tried out, as I think that would really change the flavor of the team to be pure-offensive and be the one and only change probably that is required to make the team far more balanced. At 25% self-heal, their clock is ticking... they have to keep on the offensive, and that's what their team is all about.
How often have you played as Team Fortress against a decent Dark Elf player? You would have a very different perspective if you logged some time in their shoes.
You're still referencing half-scenarios and unlikely ones.
For example, you are absolutely correct that an upgraded Void Monk's strongest tactic is 1AP to move in, 3AP to kill a unit, and 1AP to withdraw. However, it is likely that if a TF player is "swarming" as you say they do often, that Void Monk's attack is going to be absolutely brutal to 1-3 other units with it's splash (maybe one of those being a Medic, like you mentioned earlier)
Assuming the medic didnt die and it's in range, it will take that Medic a minimum of 3AP to rez the unit your Void Monk killed and get it to full health assuming the Medic isn't on an assault tile. That only leaves it 2AP to heal any other splashed units and do anything, if they can even do anything at all That typically isn't enough to top off all the effected units, meaning that each turn that passes, you're chipping away at that wall until eventually it crumbles. Just have patience.
You're also still way too worried about Snipers parked on assault tiles with a Medic giving them the uber buff. If that happens, just don't sit in that row and attack the flanks. If that Medic giving the uber buff has to heal any other units, it breaks the beam buff and wastes additional AP trying to catch back up to whats going on.
Team Fortress only has two Medics, keep them busy and you'll see results.
Tribe
As for the Tribe being top pre-patch, I didn't think that's what the stats showed, my understanding was that they were about the same as other teams, but that players found the 100% explosion to be "not fun" because it would penalize bad moves too heavily (especially for new players) and thus what was done was a "reconfiguration" rather than a strict nerf. Hence why the axe thrower got a buff at the same time the witch got a nerf.
As stated many times here and elsewhere though, it was a nerf of their AOE for a buff of their max-damage to a single-target output. In my mind, if the witch explosion had to be toned down, it wasn't the axe thrower that had to be buffed, but the Chieftans instead. Swap one AOE for another. This change shifted the balance and play style of the team quite heavily for the worse. So I would really prefer to see the axe thrower reduced to +100 or +150, the witch increased to 66% or 75% so that it is at least "useful", and the Chieftan get more area damage, I think it is 66% right now, this could be increased to 75%. Three small changes, but it would increase their ability to have some "reliable" AOE as well as a witch that still wasn't relegatred to stiring the coldron's stew at the back.
IMHO any change to them has to be purely damage-increases, not health or armor buffs, they can already chain heal, so they need to remain as offensive as possible, if they need more "umph" it should be in terms of more damage output, not defenses. Otherwise they will loose their distinct playstyle.
The problem is that the Chieftan's AOE doesnt need a buff. It's already incredibly powerful, largely in part to the free initial attack it gets via the charge. To buff it even more without taking away that charge would make the Tribe a borderline easymode team.
Snippers are not what I'm worried about with a medic buff, all you need is snipper+jarate to kill something.
As for your rebunk on the VM attack with 3AP. You assume that in 1AP you can reach 3 targets to hit, this is often not the case, most of the time you will need 1AP to get a position on your desired target, leaving you with only 2AP to hit, or you have to take a partial-target. You might be facing a Heavy, they may have the spaces where you splash be empty, or it might be where the crystal is (and 300 damage w/o a crystal boost isn't much, but it is naturally still beneficial).
Buffed TF2 medics heal guys with 520 per injection (260 to themselves per heal), that isn't a significant number and it also means they can milk a heavy. Generally the medics are one-in deep, so those units don't need to heal as they just heal themselves. If you are hitting one main target and KO it, its 1AP to rez it, 1 to get it to ~620 health (i forget if you rez at 100 or some small fraction above it), 1 more AP to heal the second target you were hitting (if it took 200+200+200 then a 520 heal is nearly equivilant to what you did to it). You have to hit a 3rd target to suck another AP. They can make the first target full with 1 more AP and your entire move was "zero effect". If you didn't hit 3 targets (excluding the medic!), then they have Aps left over, which they can use to upgrade more guys, or to change their position slightly.
Also, they don't have to heal all the guys immediatly. They can also just shift one guy out, one fresh guy in, heal the ones that they need to and meanwhile play for a better position, upgrade more guys, etc. In the end, you have to spend your entire turn to KO a guy, and meanwhile they can shift for position and get upgrades in the mean time. The clock is not in your favor, it is in the TF2 favor.
The discussion though, I agree, always gets hard when you go into detailed specific examples. And different people do play teams in different ways, I would have to agree.
;-)
BTW if the Shaolin Monk does get a buff, what if its FIRST move was 3AP? And then after that it can only move 2AP? I think that would be a nice unique touch, and it would certainly make it a lot more useful at using its ability, or in getting a combo. Of course, this is assuming the team even needs a buff! So right now, it's just an idea.
;-)
What if Witch AoE was left as is, and the Chieftain got a simple buff: Whirlwind pulls before dealing damage. Where would that leave Tribe?
What if Witch AoE was left as is, and the Chieftain got a simple buff: Whirlwind pulls before dealing damage. Where would that leave Tribe?
I believe this idea is definitely worth RE exploring with trials. Some one has toss The Tribe a bone!
I know they'd likely use it to pierce it through their nose, but even that esthetic buff is a buff.
Tribe
As for the Tribe being top pre-patch, I didn't think that's what the stats showed, my understanding was that they were about the same as other teams, but that players found the 100% explosion to be "not fun" because it would penalize bad moves too heavily (especially for new players) and thus what was done was a "reconfiguration" rather than a strict nerf. Hence why the axe thrower got a buff at the same time the witch got a nerf.
I think the stats showed pretty clearly pre-TF2 and witch nerf that tribe was the strongest team. They were behind by 6% to DE but up by almost 10% over council and dwarves. Council and Dwarves meanwhile were up by double digits to DE. So tribe had two really strong match-ups and one weaker. Council and Dwarves had one strong, one even, and one weak. DE had two weak and one stronger.
Regarding TF2, I believe they do need a nerf but I would be reluctant to mess with the medic. Why not just flat out make the spy their super-unit and give them only one? They've got more than enough damage to compensate and taking one of their blockers away would force them to be a bit more aggressive. I actually find TF2 pretty fun to play with but I feel like I'm fishing with dynamite when I use them.
What if Witch AoE was left as is, and the Chieftain got a simple buff: Whirlwind pulls before dealing damage. Where would that leave Tribe?
That would be a great change. You'd be able to set up an additional AP of AOE damage in some situations. Problem might be though that this requires a change in the animation/damage sequence, and that might not be considered a "small" balance fix for that reason.
Here is my contribution to TRIBE:
No need to buff chief. He is already powerful, and forces opposing teams to position their units as to not be whirlwinded. Tribe then takes advantage of this positioning. You can't remake chief either - less AOE damage but more direct damage will be doomsday vs teams like TF2. And tribe will also become the most boring team to play with. Chief IMO is perfect as he is, and is one of the most well-designed units in the game.
Witch's AOE needs to be buffed for reasons mentioned by many people here. 66% is a reasonable start, but on one condition:
Axe thrower needs to stay the way he is. Even a nerf to +150 instead of +200 will be huge. It will mostly affect the matchup vs... DE. 800 hp VMs will now take 4 hits to kill instead of 3. Same goes for units with 905hp or more, and DE usually has plenty of those (hatted necro and 25hp soulbomb will do the trick). In other words, we'll be nearly back to prepatch in this matchup. And wasn't the weakness of tribe vs DE one of the reasons axe thrower got buffed in the first place?
Lastly, have typhoon's move friendly corpses! As discussed in the neighboring thread.
Warriors and shammys are awesome the way they are, no need the change them. To summarize,
-Increase witch AOE to 66%
-Allow typhoons move friendly corpses
-Leave axe throwers and chiefs the way they are
As for SHAOLIN, to all of the posters here, please give them time before asking for adjustments. They've been only out for 2 days, and none of us have any idea how to play them. As far as monks go, to me they seem to be similar to council's knights, except instead of knock back they have an awesome debuff and are dangerous in combos. They are great tanks, too. It is too early to ask for buffing movement speed etc. give them at least a month!
As for TEAM FORTRESS 2, I don't see an obvious fix to them. It may be needed, but I just don't see it yet. I''ve been lately realizing that their high unit numbers can easily be exploited. They are heaven for dwarven AOE and VM's. They are very easy for imps to KO and to lure medics forward. 3 runemetaled wizards wreak havoc in TF2 lines, and council additionally has 4 other units with 300+ dmg output and 2 powerful AOE spells. Tribe struggles, but the changes I suggested above will help. And shaolin guys, although it is too early to say, shouldn't have problems against them with their great AOE and ability to turn units. In other words, TF2 can probably be left as is.
about tribe balance .. i would love to have an option to stomp units with my witch, sometimes, i want to move forward and keep attacking, its just sometimes makes more sence to stomp, not explode the corpse.
The cheiftan should either stay as he is now or remaked, buffing him and he will be insane.... But remaking the cheiftain should help them getting an reliable AoE against tf2 (assuming RE will go that way).
ranged stomp effects like necromancer and witch should be benefical, but not something reliable. A small gain, but not something you should rely on all the time. Too high AoE on the witch would be the same as necromancers raising phantoms with 200dmg and 800hp.
for tribe, im willing to accept both trips and aratribals suggestions. 66% AoE witch
i dunno, tf2 should get some kind of nerf atleast. The only reason dwarves got a fighting chance is because of their massive AoE. I feel like other teams struggle abit more. And this wont get better for dwarves will probably get some kind of nerf. I dont know what should be nerfed but.. I wonder why demoman is a 100% copy of the grenadier, but with no melee weakness and bonus dmg vs crystals? Im glad they aint exact copies, it would be boring as hell. But i dont get it why they are 2.0 grenadiers. Make them so you can feel they are actually diffrent from the grenadier, and not just 2.0 units.
DE and CL can probably be left as they are right now.
As for dwarves, i still want to things (actually 3, but i know a new team bonus will never come ^^).
First, the hole in the engineer bubble. When the engineer which controls the bubble gets KOed the same time the bubbled target takes dmg, so will the bubbled unit take dmg even when hes bubbled. This rarely happens, but its a hole in the bubble which shouldnt exist.
And earlier it was easier to rearrange your bubbles. Right now, engineer A casts bubble on gunner. But due to the situation, you want engineer B to cast the bubble on the gunner. But since the gunner already got a bubble you cant. Engineer A needs to cast on something else before engineer B can cast on the gunner. I dont remember when RE changed this but before you could just bubbleswap right away.
Am I imagining it, or didn't Tribe also get Warrior nerfed by removing his 50% sngle hit crystal kill? Everyone seems not to mention that. I agree with corpse explosion AoE needs buffing. Tribe are now the worst team by far. They used to be the most fun (before TF came along).
About DW, an option is to drop engineer shields to range 2, and remove paladin self heal. Removing paladin buff would make DE tend to turtle even more.
TF can't have medic self heal removed, unless they are given a third medic. Dropping Sniper power would unfortunately make the team useless again, so woudl be a bad idea. Are they really OP anyway?
Shaolin Monk does need a range of 3.
Am I imagining it, or didn't Tribe also get Warrior nerfed by removing his 50% sngle hit crystal kill? Everyone seems not to mention that. I agree with corpse explosion AoE needs buffing. Tribe are now the worst team by far. They used to be the most fun (before TF came along).
About DW, an option is to drop engineer shields to range 2, and remove paladin self heal. Removing paladin buff would make DE tend to turtle even more.
TF can't have medic self heal removed, unless they are given a third medic. Dropping Sniper power would unfortunately make the team useless again, so woudl be a bad idea. Are they really OP anyway?
Shaolin Monk does need a range of 3.
We aren't talking about the Warrior nerf because it never happened. ;)
Yes, TF2 probably needs a nerf. And no, I do not think a modest Sniper reduction would totally cripple them.
Am I imagining it, or didn't Tribe also get Warrior nerfed by removing his 50% sngle hit crystal kill? Everyone seems not to mention that. I agree with corpse explosion AoE needs buffing. Tribe are now the worst team by far. They used to be the most fun (before TF came along).
About DW, an option is to drop engineer shields to range 2, and remove paladin self heal. Removing paladin buff would make DE tend to turtle even more.
TF can't have medic self heal removed, unless they are given a third medic. Dropping Sniper power would unfortunately make the team useless again, so woudl be a bad idea. Are they really OP anyway?
Shaolin Monk does need a range of 3.
As Trip said, it never happened... BUT other published interviws with RE folks (Zekers?) said at one time CK finish-off was drafted to be the same as the unit finish-off percentage. BUt someone convinced them pre-release to nerf it. So in a way it did get nerfed... just in Beta.
Razcrux, these are good ideas. I think keeping Council the same is good. Make it the reference team, and adjust other teams as necessary, to avoid inflation. I wouldn't mess with bubbles though, that would dramatically change gameplay. If Tribe needs a buff (which it does) make one of their units stonger. I vote for mildly increased witch splash.
Zekers, I have a request. When you do balance adjustments, please make a very small number of adjustments, rather than a large number of tiny adjustments. That is, if possible, a maximum of one simple memorable change per team.
If you do a lot of adjustments, you break a lot of tactics and strategies people have developed intuition for.
Oh BTW I forgot to mention it at the start, but the TF2 has horrible numbers! Most teams you can do the math in your head, but with the TF2 you really need a calculator...
Are you seriously calling Tribe, Dwarf, and Shaolin numbers easy? Council vs. Dark Elves had a nice mathematical simplicity, but everything since has been a royal numerical cluster-pluck. =D
Keeping that in mind, I vote that we buff the witch's corpse explosion to 70.51% damage.
No imaginary numbers? We can do better.