Further thought on balance
Okay so I know the Shaolin are hot, and that we are waiting for a patch to rebalance the existing/new team. But I wanted to share some further thoughts on tha matter since I know that Robots are reviewing balance now in the next weeks. Here is my full-dump on all the teams. I'm not the best player by any means, but I do play a lot and currently ranked at 1340-ish in the league. I design, balance and make games for a living.
Tribe
Many people have said that the old Witch was an unreliable but strong AOE puppet (pre current patch). But that isn't really true, before she was the engine that made the Tribe be able to play agressively. Before, if your opponent was a turteling Dwarf, you could toss in your expendable guys. Which used to be anything except your Shamans and buffed-witches, and grind at your opponent. The idea was to start a ***-for-tat game, and to dome some AOE with a Chieftan or two to wittle down their ability to heal and re-buff all their guys. It could cost you a guy or two but eventually you will get opportunities to explode guys. Or you can even explode your own guys. The witches stayed behind, it wasn't unreliable AOE, it was an agressive suicidal AOE power-game play, something that really set the Tribe appart. Anyone who thinks that the witch wasn't the most important unit in the team before the patch never tried to play them super-agressive and force explosions on the opponent. It was a very effective playstyle and how I used to run them in the league. Now I never play them in the league because they, well, suck. :-)
The other issue, specifically vs. Dwarves, is that your anger is used up on the engineer bubble. If they have an Anahilator on the field, with armor buffs, upgraded to the max and an engineer bubble, you just can't break into it and actually stomp/explode it in one turn (unless they make a mistake, but waiting for a mistake is not really very strategic). The anger shouldn't be waisted on an engineer bubble. If you attack a bubble and thats the only thing you damage, your anger should stay. In other words: the Tribe has to actually do at least 5 points of damage (taste some blood) to release its anger.
On the TF2 map, this problem is further compunded for the Tribe because the Train doesn't trigger Anger. This means that the Annahilator can push your guys around, then run in an expendable dwarf, and sweep-kill your guys and you won't get any anger for it to get in some retaliation.
Tribe is extremly dependant on Anger to get high damage output, if it can't get angry, and if I can't use that anger on anything, they suffer quite heavily because the meat only gives %275 instead of %300 that the scroll gives. Thats 550/771 damage vs. 600/900. So if your witch has a sword upgrade and meat, it does only 770 which won't KO in one shot anything, let alone a fully buffed unit. The axe thrower can get more damage, 970 because of the +200 base, but the axe thrower also only hits at range 2 instead of 3. It's the only way you can possibly one-shot with meat when not-angry, and it requires an upgrade.
Making the Train create anger if you didn't Train yourself (so only triggers if durring the opponents turn a train kills you) and also letting Tribe's anger not get waisted on an engineer bubble will already make the Dwarf battle quite a bit more feasible. I feel the TF2-Train map is currently the worst matchup for the Tribe imaginable, maybe the stats confirm this.
If the witch can't be restored to previous AOE damage, which I understand may not be open for debate, then they need a way to again be better at being hyper-agressive and doing major AOE damage / KOs. The witch at 66% would be a simple fix, or making the AOE splash from a corpse-explosion be a FIXED amount (say 250) that can't be increased.
The other way to get more AOE power would be to give the Chieftan more power, I don't think he should get more life, after thinking about it more, because it wouldn't stimulate their agressive nature, instead I think the Chieftan should get more attack-strength. There are two interesting ways to do this:
- Make his "charge" attack do +50% damage, also make it break Engineer shields for free. This would let him become more of a threat from range and allow him to help generate some more counters to turtleling factions.
- Give him a base of 250 attack instead of 200. The difference is small but it means that with meat and weapon-upgrade he can KO adjacent units when he whirl winds; making him an actual threat when sword-upgraded. As it is now, upgrading him is generally not really very viable.
TF2
Over to the TF2. The problem sitll exists that the TF2 can turtle just as well as the Dwarves, and that the longer you don't break into them, the stronger they get (vast upgrades, medics can (double) power-up a guy on an attack tile into a titantic, etc.).
I believe that the TF2 is just overall too strong. The stats would have to support me, but if they do, they need some reductions in a number of areas. Their damage output can get too high with the medic boostings, limiting its range to 2 instead of 3 would help. The medics shouldn't be able to heal themselves, because it makes it impossible to break into the pile. They have so many guys they can expend them and thus are crazy strong at Crystal hunting, some of their damage output vs. crystals could be reduced, and the Heavy shouldn't be 1200 but 1000 like most other factions. Maybe not all of these changes are required, but I listed all the possible ones that I see as issues because I feel that in all these areas they are doing too well. Just making the medics not self heal would immediatly change the game and stop them from being amazing at turteling, leaving them strong at attrition and crystal hunting; but not strong at "anything".
The one faction TF2 has trouble with, Dwarves, could be addressed by a very small change, allow the Snipper to bypass the Engineer shield "for free" and to do damage ignoring (breaking) the Engineer bubble as it damages the target.
Dwarves
Some small changes are already mentioned above, but to recap:
Engineer:
- Make the engineer bubble pop "without blocking damage" when hit by a TF2 snipper's shot.
- Engineer bubbles don't waist a Tribe's anger if all the Tribe does is pop a bubble.
Other possible changes include: lower Paladin's base-health by 100 and/or ability to self-heal. Reduce range of Engineers back to 2 instead of 3 squares, or make the engineer's bubble only work if the target REAMINS within 3 spaces of the engineer. Lower the splash damage of the grenadier. Lower the base damage of the annahalator to 250 instead of 300. (it's kinda insane right now, best unit in the game by-far and it can lead to "un-fun pinned-games where you can't do anything but get hammered for 10 turns into a corner)
Dark Elves
Dark Elves I think are doing nearly just fine, I would just make the Wraith start at 800 life and scale-back its life upgrades per "consumption" to be less, as others have suggested. That small change is probably all that is needed.
Council
No changes needed! Perfect as is.
Shaolin
Too early to tell! So far no glaring issues. They will be a tutlr-power because they need combos and you have to move in groups. But you do also have some hit-and-run options with the debuffs... so hard to say for certain yet what type of faction they are and who they loose/win against consistently. I do wish that the Poison was actually Poison, and not just -armor. What I would have made Posion to be instead was:
- Poisoned: Target takes 100 damage at the start of each turn, until healed by a healer or potion.
So the idea would be similar, you around and poison all their guys, and thus forcing them to loose APs to heal their own guys or suffer gradual health loss. However, the current effect is certainly usable and effective.
Thanks for the post. I'll take some of these ideas into mind.
Self heal of the TF2 could be changed to 25% instead of 50%. The problem is that they can create giant turtle-walls, ever gaining in power, and then tossing guys to kill your crystal and you just can't break in anywhere. Making the healers self-heal less (if not zero, 25%) would immediatly force the TF2 to actually move-out of their little hobble on their side of the board and keep agressive rather than ninja-turtle-powered. Removing the 10% is actually another good option, it is true that it has saved medics several times and I went "curse you medic"! However, this won;t help Dark Elves break into the cluster if they are using Void Monks to do Splash. So the removal of the 10% will not balance the TF2 against all factions, the self heal reall just needs to be less, zero or 25%. It's okay for you to loose your KO'd guys, you got waaay more than anyone else ;)
As for the range-3 reduction, this might not apply in all games, but combined with being able to turtle, they can double-pump a guy, and then move it 3 spaces away to 1 or 2-shot KO anything they want... it's simply too much gun power with too much range.
Dark Elves: Well, I find that they are very good. They are the one-team that I play in the league that I do very well with. They are -not- as easy to play though as some of the other teams, but that doesn't make them weaker, just more advanced in some ways, IMHO. The wraith boost wouldn't do very much, but it would ensure in a few more games that it can stay alive, or not KO rapidly to splash damage (like when used to deploy-stomp next to another guy and they are using a Grenadier on your main-guy, if the wraith had 800 life instead of 650 they would actually have to pick a target rather than just grenade the main-guy and then KO both of them for free; just one example of how that change can win you 1 AP in a match (or in this case, a barely alive Wraith deep in enemy teritory, vs a very dead one).
Council: I think the problem is more the TF2 is too strong than the Council needs a buff. I like your suggestion, but it would impact then the balance between them and the DE's, which is already very slightly in Council's favor. More magic resist = even more council advantage, so I don't think that's at all a good idea. If the TF2 does too much damage, just reduce their damage output. Why all the weird fractions? make the buffs go from 200 to 225 and from 300 to 350. Much easier math!
Shaolin: I agree that the effect is more useful right now, but the name implies a different effect. I wouldn't call it a poisoner, it would need a different name to imply its actual effect; but this is details.
Thanks for the post. I'll take some of these ideas into mind.
Great thanks for your time and continued devotion to a great game!
Heavy can be kill stomped by upgraded attackers with 4ap. Such is life when you have no resistances. Because of this I think that where he is in terms of survivability is just fine. The only change I would make to tf2 is to Nerf the damage boost from medics. Dropping the link range from medic would limit its usability a great deal. The set up time makes it difficult to use and it works more of a zoning tool than an actual damage tool as people will 9/10 times stay the *** away from you
Some thoughts on your thoughts:
Tribe
I'm not sure what your definition of "unreliable" entails, but in my book requiring preemptive softening by other units in order to deal AOE damage is precisely what makes it unreliable. If you want to deal AOE damage with the Witch, you are relying on your opponent to respond to your attacks in specific ways, thus setting up a valuable corpse explosion. It is impossible to guarantee a good result at any given time unless your opponent has left you an opportunity, but when those opportunities arise they can be devastating. Hence "unreliable, but strong". The problem has been that, with the 50% nerf, the corpse explosion has become "unreliable, and weak"; there's simply not enough payback for the cost of making it happen. At 100% splash damage, the payback for rage-sploding a corpse was tremendous -- you got rid of a KOed unit AND dealt full damage to sometimes 3 or 4 units, generally KOing some or all of those units as well. The nerf occurred because this return on the investment was deemed too good, but I agree that 50% (even with the wacky "max HP ratio" bonus) removes almost any incentive to actually set up a good splode. So where is the sweet spot? I'm not fully convinced that 66% is the magic number, but I'd rather see incremental changes to avoid overshooting and returning to previous problems.
This problem sums up one of the issues inherent to balancing the Tribe -- they can often be an "all or nothing" type team. Either they blow you away with a burst of waves, meat, and rage, or they peter out, using up their consumables without getting sufficient value for them. This makes them perhaps the most difficult team to balance -- beef damage up too high and their bursts will be too consistently unstoppable. Reduce it too low and their bursts will never be enough. So, with all that, my recommendation for Tribe changes is as follows:
- Witch CE damage up to somewhere between 66% and 75%
- Axe-thrower damage bonus down to +150
TF2
Team Fortress is built around units, and their sheer numbers serve as both advantage and disadvantage. When they win, they often do so because they can make more 1-for-1 trades than their opponent. When they lose, it's often because their units can struggle to individually deal enough damage to get KOs without jarate and, massed together, they are vulnerable to AOE. I would argue that, before the Sniper change, they were actually very slightly underpowered compared to other teams, but that now, with the change, they are slightly overpowered. Why would such a small change be so influential?
Consider the following: one of the biggest frustrations playing as TF2 is that damage is so consistently rigged to be just barely insufficient. An upgraded Pyro deals 390 damage -- not QUITE enough to take out a vanilla unit in 2 shots, and likewise not QUITE enough to take out an armored 960 HP unit in 3 shots. This sets up an interesting dilemma, forcing the TF2 player to think outside the box to set up combos and proactive attacks in order to get kills without jarate. The problem is that the new sniper breaks this model. At 430 damage, the crouched and upgraded sniper deals enough to "fill in the gaps" on almost any important KO. With sniper support, a pyro can 2-shot a vanilla unit or 3-shot an armored one, without requiring any assistance from Medic boosting or attack tiles, both of which were necessary for the previous Sniper to have this kind of significant impact. Furthermore, the current Sniper deals 1180 damage with Jarate, and 1100 against 20% armored enemy units. That's an instant KO against almost anything. Even a unit at 40% armor (say, an archer on a defense tile) takes 1010 damage! That's simply too much power for one unit to have at that kind of range. So, my suggestion for TF2 is simple: dial that Sniper down a touch. With +250 for the crouch instead of +300, upgraded snipers will deal 380 damage -- still a lot for a single shot, but not enough to combo with pyros or soldiers for easy kills. Armored units would then take 970 damage with Jarate -- still enough to KO most units, but not if they have boosted life or are at 40% defense. So, my TF2 suggestion:
- Reduce Sniper's crouch bonus from +300 to +250
Dwarves
Before their big buff patch, Dwarves were actually the least reliable team. Only their crazy splash damage (grenadiers absolutely owned crystals before tile boosts were nerfed) saved them from being useless. Their fragile individual units felt distinctly un-Dwarfy, and their inability to remote rez or stomp stood out as glaring weaknesses. The Pulverizer was nice, but generally didn't do enough to actually take out important units -- at 500 damage, even vanilla enemies would usually require 2 more attacks at range to KO. With their patched buffs, however, the team has had an almost complete makeover. They are no longer the best crystal hunters, but the Paladin's aura and Engineer's range boost have combined to make them by far the most resilient. The "Dwarven Fortress" is surely one of the most frustrating ways to lose once it has been constructed, and only a good draw and smart, aggressive play can prevent a long, slow, splodey death against them. Finally, the Annihilator + Pulverizer combo is one of the most devastating in the game, making mincemeat in 2 shots of even heavily armored units. I think it's clear that Dwarves are currently at or near the top of the heap, and I'd even give them the nod against TF2, assuming evenly matched, expert play. So yes, a small nerf is not unreasonable. But what can be done? I'm not a fan of "special case rule" fixes, such as specifically allowing Snipers or Chieftains to penetrate shields, or to prevent rage from being lost (that's what spiked shields are for). Eliminating the aura (another proposal that has floated around) would be also mistake, I believe, and would return the Dwarves to their initial fragility. But what about tuning it down a bit? Eliminating aura stacking would keep its value in most situations, but would reduce the power of the Dwarven Fortress, making it a bit easier to deal significant damage. Against a cluster of Dwarves including all three Paladins, this would amount to a 5% - 10% reduction in both resistances -- certainly meaningful.
Furthermore, the Pulverizer + Annihilator synergy should be nerfed a bit. Currently, with a 50% physical resistance debuff, this combo deals 1140 damage against an opponent with sworded Annihilator and both initial resistances at 20% -- too much, I think. With a 20% debuff, the combo would deal 960 damage exactly against a 20/20 resistance opponent. Still enough to take out a fully buffed archer in 2 AP, for example, but not enough to take out a wizard or an armored opponent on a defense tile. So, my Dwarf recommendations:
- Remove Paladin aura stacking
- Decrease Annihilator debuff to 20%
Dark Elves and Council
I agree that not much should be done to these two teams -- they are the benchmarks against which the others should be measured. I do like the idea of making the Wraith a bit more meaningful for high-level play, and 800 starting health (with reduced subsequent health ramping) might be an interesting place to start in that regards.
Trip's suggestions are good changes.
I feel comfortable that we can already add:
Shaolin:
Bamboo not counted as a unit for purposes of first turn.
As balance can be fixed through other ways, but this change is necessary to reduce the impact of luck to tolerable levels.
I also agree with trip. Even if it means I lose my beloved über zone controller
Tribe is extremly dependant on Anger to get high damage output, if it can't get angry, and if I can't use that anger on anything, they suffer quite heavily because the meat only gives %275 instead of %300 that the scroll gives. Thats 550/771 damage vs. 600/900. So if your witch has a sword upgrade and meat, it does only 770 which won't KO in one shot anything, let alone a fully buffed unit. The axe thrower can get more damage, 970 because of the +200 base, but the axe thrower also only hits at range 2 instead of 3. It's the only way you can possibly one-shot with meat when not-angry, and it requires an upgrade.
A small nitpick, but a Witch with a Runmetal does 825 damage (300 x 2.75 = 825). This allows Witches to one-shot unupgraded units. This also means that in 5AP, a Witch can move, use Meat, attack, attack, and "stomp" a unit with one piece of defensive equipment.
Don't forget that Tribe players can also use Typhoon to abuse a Witch on an attack tile and nab key KOs - other factions cannot do this (okay, the Dark Elves can use Impalers to pull enemies into the range of a Necromancer on an attack tile, but it's not nearly as easy to do.) This serves as a powerful deterrent and harms your opponent's spacing.
I don't disagree that the Tribe is lacking in some areas, but the Typhoon especially makes it difficult to boost them without making them too strong.
I'm going to side with Trip on this one as well, except I'm not so sure that the Team Fortress Sniper needs it's snipe attack nerfed, its really the only thing a Sniper is good for, and the damage output feels like it's in a pretty solid place even when it has the Engineer buff.
I'm going to side with Trip on this one as well, except I'm not so sure that the Team Fortress Sniper needs it's snipe attack nerfed, its really the only thing a Sniper is good for, and the damage output feels like it's in a pretty solid place even when it has the Engineer buff.
I too am not sure that is the exact right tweak, but TF2 and Dwarves do appear to be the currently two strongest, most flexible, good against all comers, teams. So some tiny nerf seems in order, and that seemed small on first look. If not that, then something of that size.
I'm going to side with Trip on this one as well, except I'm not so sure that the Team Fortress Sniper needs it's snipe attack nerfed, its really the only thing a Sniper is good for, and the damage output feels like it's in a pretty solid place even when it has the Engineer buff.
So, the only thing that the Sniper is good for is dealing obscene amounts of damage at long range? Is that all? ;)
I tease, but I'm curious what you think about TF2's overall strength. Would you agree that they are currently a little ahead of the curve? If so, what balance change would you suggest rather than tweaking sniper damage slightly?
Im siding with trip aswell, these changes sounds really reasonable. One step at the time, reaching the balance we all want.
Just a question trip, have you thought of a small nerf on the jarate instead of the sniper? just want to hear your thoughts :)
Also this feels like a time we can whine on some other small stuff, like for example dwarves and councils racial traits doesnt really do anything. If they do make them actually do something it needs to be considered into balance tho.
Also, am i still the only one that thinks that cheiftain should get a remake? for example more of a reliable AoE instead of its random win AoE.
Im siding with trip aswell, these changes sounds really reasonable. One step at the time, reaching the balance we all want.
Just a question trip, have you thought of a small nerf on the jarate instead of the sniper? just want to hear your thoughts :)
Also this feels like a time we can whine on some other small stuff, like for example dwarves and councils racial traits doesnt really do anything. If they do make them actually do something it needs to be considered into balance tho.
Also, am i still the only one that thinks that cheiftain should get a remake? for example more of a reliable AoE instead of its random win AoE.
Have you ever tried to deal with a ~1100+ hp VM without jarate? Spoilers: He can get kills with stomps without risking his own life.
i havent buyed the tf2 team so i dont know :) (but i do know the hopeless feeling of unkillable roaming VMs, it isnt a pleasnt)
im just getting annyoed for people saying pulverziers is no strategy involved when jarate is almost of the point of just putting in on a high value target. later on when you want to kill it, its almost to the point of oneshotting it so your high value targets are dead without you can say anything about it (almost).
I havent really thought of any numbers for the jarate and im not implying it should be nerfed to the ground, since tf2 need the jarate. just want it tuned down a *little* bit.
I'm going to side with Trip on this one as well, except I'm not so sure that the Team Fortress Sniper needs it's snipe attack nerfed, its really the only thing a Sniper is good for, and the damage output feels like it's in a pretty solid place even when it has the Engineer buff.
So, the only thing that the Sniper is good for is dealing obscene amounts of damage at long range? Is that all? ;)
I tease, but I'm curious what you think about TF2's overall strength. Would you agree that they are currently a little ahead of the curve? If so, what balance change would you suggest rather than tweaking sniper damage slightly?
At best, they threaten one unobscured row (per sniper) with great damage for one attack per turn if you arent threatening and forcing their hand in other parts of the board. It's more of a route denial / deturrent on most maps than anything else. It also gives an interesting and different strategic dynamic on the teleporter map especially.
As far as their overall strength, what are the current league results showing? I'm not one to argue with facts. In the right circumstances, Team Fortress has some sharp teeth, but it takes some set-up and/or good initial draws, otherwise they are incredibly vulnerable to extremely aggressive initial play.
I'm not disagreeing with you Trip, I was only saying that I wasn't sure that particular adjustment was necessary. It's entirely possible that it is. What are your thoughts beyond the face value statement?
i havent buyed the tf2 team so i dont know :) (but i do know the hopeless feeling of unkillable roaming VMs, it isnt a pleasnt)
im just getting annyoed for people saying pulverziers is no strategy involved when jarate is almost of the point of just putting in on a high value target. later on when you want to kill it, its almost to the point of oneshotting it so your high value targets are dead without you can say anything about it (almost).
I havent really thought of any numbers for the jarate and im not implying it should be nerfed to the ground, since tf2 need the jarate. just want it tuned down a *little* bit.
Having faced unkillable roaming VMs as Dwarves and Team Fortress, I can vouche that it's much much more difficult / frustrating as Team Fortress. They just don't have the damage output necessary to do it the majority of the time. It isn't even always reliable with a Jarate unless you can guarantee the stomp through good positioning or the DElf player making some kind of a mistake.
And for those curious, train kills on the TF map now triggers the Tribe's racial bonus.
Thanks for the bounce-back Trip.
Tribe: I'd still like to have the Chieftan buffed a bit rather than just making the Witch do 66% or 75%. With the new teams, getting more AOE damage is ever more crucial and the Chieftan is often lacking. BTW The spike armor only pops the current engineer bubble but doesn't stop the raiding dwarf from putting it back on at the end of their move. Spiked armor is also situational, it's passive-reative rather than controlled-reactive. I still think that rage shouldn't be lost on popping an engineer bubble though, that would make a big improvement in the match up.
TF2: I agree that the Sniper is too strong, but I really feel that the team is overall over powered and it's not just from the Sniper. They currently are great at going for TKO, Crystal kill and Turtle play. They should be good at two of these styles, not all 3. A reduction in the medic-pump buff would be welcome, but also a reduction in the self heal to 25%. That would make busting into the turtle feasible as currently it is futile if you opponent has half the sense on how to place their guys at home while building-up.
Dwarves: I think that making the Annahilator do a base of 250 damage instead of 300 would really bring a lot of balance to things. I'd rather see that change than the debuff beocming less. It is true that the debuff can be powerful, but it is still situaitonal. If the damage were 250 you would be able to actually put some pressure back on the Annahilator before it scrambled and KO'd your guys into a corner. I'd personally be fine if the Dwarves can debuff and thern Pulversize a Crystal but conversly can't 2-shot KO all my units. The problem with Dwarves isn't, I believe, that they get Crystal kills too easily or quickly, but rather that you can't break into the fortress and then they can set up a power-unit that you can't bust up while it squeezes all your options down to few to none and you just have to react for X turns while it whittles you away. I really don't see how making the aura's not stack, as the only single change, is really going to make such a huge difference? 5% armor is often as good as 20% armor as all it takes is 1% armor to make a 200 point attack on a 800 life unit take 5 AP instead of 4 AP.
Thanks for your input!
Having faced unkillable roaming VMs as Dwarves and Team Fortress, I can vouche that it's much much more difficult / frustrating as Team Fortress. They just don't have the damage output necessary to do it the majority of the time. It isn't even always reliable with a Jarate unless you can guarantee the stomp through good positioning or the DElf player making some kind of a mistake.
with the massive power of the jarate which more or less almost kills anything (attacking with an offensive unit ofc). Its also easy to pre-jarate compared to a pre-scroll (thus when executing your target, you will always have one more AP). When a high-value target becomes jarated. You can either keep him at the very back, which is more or less the same thing as dead. If you keep the target on the frontlines, hes dead, stomped and you even have time to retreat or depending on the situation attack some more. And we cant forget the scouts 4 movement, so while you still try getting some use of your high-value target by keeping him in the middle field, if your not careful he will be KOed and stomped by the scout instead. So what you gotta do is to force the tf2 player to atleast sacrifice an offensive unit, but if you execute it well you can get 2 units off the tf2 player before he gets your high value target.
i dont know the best numbers to tune it down, but juuust a little and it should be good afterwards, from a fun perspective you see your precious 960 20/20 units getting onehitted a little.. Enough so these doesnt get oneshotted, but still so units like a wizard 960 20/30 still can get 2-shotted. The diffrence between 1shot and 2shots is large.
Hi Karaoke! Well in the game I just played, after the Shaolin release, no racial Anger was created by the train being triggered and killing my Tribe units... (?) So I'm curious if it works for you!
As for frustration trying to kill Dark Elf units that are high-life, the TF2 really does have good options vs. the DE. Their upgrades counter the small health gains that the DE gets from Soul Harvest very effectively and no other faction can use medics to double-pump a unit to ungodly levels. The jarate is also, to a degree, superior to scrolls too. A 390 damage unit, with jarate is going to take down a lot of DE units, no mater how much life they had. DE wins games by getting to a lock-situation where the opponent is faced with units it can no longer KO and who self-heal what damage they get. The balance on this team is, IMHO, quit well set at the moment and nearly perfect (Wraith starting-HP increase is welcome though, very subtle improvement).
Tribe: I'd still like to have the Chieftan buffed a bit
you know they could always remake the cheiftan so he becomes reliable but removes the autowin factor :)
BTW The spike armor only pops the current engineer bubble but doesn't stop the raiding dwarf from putting it back on at the end of their move. Spiked armor is also situational, it's passive-reative rather than controlled-reactive. I still think that rage shouldn't be lost on popping an engineer bubble though, that would make a big improvement in the match up.
you know that DW gets similar problems against tribe because of the spikeshield? And if you attack so you still have time to bubble and retreat so will the shaman heal the AoE dmg with an AoE heal. So not only tribe that suffers in this matchup..
So DW vs TR is just boring as hell :)
Oh BTW I forgot to mention it at the start, but the TF2 has horrible numbers! Most teams you can do the math in your head, but with the TF2 you really need a calculator... Heavy increases damage with each AP, 390 with two medics, then an attack tile, then a jarate for -175% armor... you have to map out all these numbers to see if your guys are at risk of being stomped (especially because they can "free stomp") -- ug! Do we really need new teams to use such complicated numbers? It would be nice, future team-wise, to keep the math a lot more straight forward. Shaolin have the Combo bonus, and I'm not sure how it scales, but otherwise they are good in that they don't have a ton of weird numbers you have to all line up and calculate. Simpler is better!
:_)
{and for those who ask: count 390 and 400 and then remove a little... this doesn't work for a team like Dark Elves who have random health levels above 800 and when it thus becomes very crucial to count every unit of 5 damage you take}
Hi Karaoke! Well in the game I just played, after the Shaolin release, no racial Anger was created by the train being triggered and killing my Tribe units... (?) So I'm curious if it works for you!
As for frustration trying to kill Dark Elf units that are high-life, the TF2 really does have good options vs. the DE. Their upgrades counter the small health gains that the DE gets from Soul Harvest very effectively and no other faction can use medics to double-pump a unit to ungodly levels. The jarate is also, to a degree, superior to scrolls too. A 390 damage unit, with jarate is going to take down a lot of DE units, no mater how much life they had. DE wins games by getting to a lock-situation where the opponent is faced with units it can no longer KO and who self-heal what damage they get. The balance on this team is, IMHO, quit well set at the moment and nearly perfect (Wraith starting-HP increase is welcome though, very subtle improvement).
Yup, I'm playing a Shaolin vs Tribe game right now on iOS and kill/stomped a Tribe Warrior with a train and it triggered the racial, so I can confirm it for sure.
I would also suggest that though they are strong, you may be giving Team Fortress a bit too much credit. Void Monks are one of the biggest threats to TF and if they're upgraded, it can be incredibly (!!!) difficult to stop. A sword-upgraded VM can move in from three spaces away, kill any TF unit minus the heavy in 3x attacks, and either stomp or withdraw.
This coupled with the VMs splash damage, and TF's weakness in keeping units healed and topped off creates only a matter of time before the Void Monk completely (and single handedly) overpowers Team Fortress unless they can either Jarate+Sniper the Void Monk, or somehow get a Spy behind it (and don't forget that it takes 2x backstabs to kill that Void Monk). If a Priestess is within 1 move from that non-stomped VM, then you can simply rez it and the last 3 attacks can be used to kill the spy which will get the VM back to almost full health. If you have a Soul Harvest on hand to rez that Monk, then it isn't even fair.
You keep talking about double medics giving their uber buff to units, but that is an incredibly situational situation that is pretty damn rare and requires major positional sacrifices to maintain. It's possible, sure, but the set up is significant just to pull off unless the Team Fortress player gets lucky on the draws.
Yup, I'm playing a Shaolin vs Tribe game right now on iOS and kill/stomped a Tribe Warrior with a train and it triggered the racial, so I can confirm it for sure.
I believe we are talking about the specific situation where a knock-back ability (Annilator, Rocketman or Knight) pushes a friendly tribe unit onto the Tribe's own train button, killing another tribe unit. This does not (or did not) cause enraged. Since Shaolin has no knock-back abilities, I don't think your situation applies. I think an end-run to the Tribe's train button using an enemy unit always caused enraged, even before the update.
Yup, I'm playing a Shaolin vs Tribe game right now on iOS and kill/stomped a Tribe Warrior with a train and it triggered the racial, so I can confirm it for sure.
I believe we are talking about the specific situation where a knock-back ability (Annilator, Rocketman or Knight) pushes a friendly tribe unit onto the Tribe's own train button, killing another tribe unit. This does not (or did not) cause enraged. Since Shaolin has no knock-back abilities, I don't think your situation applies. I think an end-run to the Tribe's train button using an enemy unit always caused enraged, even before the update.
On the TF2 map, this problem is further compunded for the Tribe because the Train doesn't trigger Anger. This means that the Annahilator can push your guys around, then run in an expendable dwarf, and sweep-kill your guys and you won't get any anger for it to get in some retaliation.
It sounds like he's saying that you can have your Annihilator "push" units onto the train tracks and then send an expendable dwarf run across the map to stand on their train switch to get the kill/stomps without triggering the racial. I didn't see anything in what he said to get the conclusion you came to.
Thanks for the bounce-back Trip.
Any time! =)
Tribe: I'd still like to have the Chieftan buffed a bit rather than just making the Witch do 66% or 75%. With the new teams, getting more AOE damage is ever more crucial and the Chieftan is often lacking. BTW The spike armor only pops the current engineer bubble but doesn't stop the raiding dwarf from putting it back on at the end of their move. Spiked armor is also situational, it's passive-reative rather than controlled-reactive. I still think that rage shouldn't be lost on popping an engineer bubble though, that would make a big improvement in the match up.
Rebubbling costs 1 AP. Healing AND rebubbling costs at least 2. How much damage can a Dwarf do with the remaining 3 AP, while still getting back to safety? There is currently an uneasy balance between the Dwarves' bubbles and the Tribe's Spike Shields -- Dwarves have a hard time keeping shields up while on the attack, and Tribe has a hard time taking out their rage on shielded dwarves. I'd be verrrry leery about making a change as drastic as the one you are suggesting here.
As for a Chieftain buff, I think it's an idea worth having on the table, but almost certainly at the cost of the recent axe-thrower buff. Having a buffed axe-man AND and freshly buffed Chieftain would be too much physical damage at the Tribe's disposal, IMO. Don't forget that Tribe was statistically the top dog, pre-nerf. Even now, they are not so far behind that they couldn't become OP very easily.
TF2: I agree that the Sniper is too strong, but I really feel that the team is overall over powered and it's not just from the Sniper. They currently are great at going for TKO, Crystal kill and Turtle play. They should be good at two of these styles, not all 3. A reduction in the medic-pump buff would be welcome, but also a reduction in the self heal to 25%. That would make busting into the turtle feasible as currently it is futile if you opponent has half the sense on how to place their guys at home while building-up.
You keep mentioning TF2 turtling, and to be honest I haven't seen that strategy effectively performed in any of my games, ever. TF2 turtles go down hard to well-played AOE assaults, and it's almost impossible to prevent this if they give their opponents enough time to set up and deploy units and equipment. Scrolled wizard + inferno? Devastating. Super Void Monk rampage once Jarates are used up? Nightmarish. Shaolin... Errrr, I'll get back to you on that one. ;) But seriously, since when are TF2 great turtlers? They have no defense, poor healing, and poor mobility. If any nerfs are done to them (and I do think they deserve one), I don't think the Medic (already one of their weak points) should be the target of it. Weakening the Medic, I think, would make them glass-cannons very similar to the version 1.0 Dwarves -- all firepower and no staying power. And I don't think that model is a viable or balanced one.
Dwarves: I think that making the Annahilator do a base of 250 damage instead of 300 would really bring a lot of balance to things. I'd rather see that change than the debuff beocming less. It is true that the debuff can be powerful, but it is still situaitonal. If the damage were 250 you would be able to actually put some pressure back on the Annahilator before it scrambled and KO'd your guys into a corner. I'd personally be fine if the Dwarves can debuff and thern Pulversize a Crystal but conversly can't 2-shot KO all my units. The problem with Dwarves isn't, I believe, that they get Crystal kills too easily or quickly, but rather that you can't break into the fortress and then they can set up a power-unit that you can't bust up while it squeezes all your options down to few to none and you just have to react for X turns while it whittles you away. I really don't see how making the aura's not stack, as the only single change, is really going to make such a huge difference? 5% armor is often as good as 20% armor as all it takes is 1% armor to make a 200 point attack on a 800 life unit take 5 AP instead of 4 AP.
I don't like nerfing the Annihilator's base damage, and I'll tell you why. Currently the Annihilator stands as the only Dwarven offensive unit that does not have a range weakness. The Grenadier is fantastic at range, but only has base 200 damage and has a dead spot up close, a weakness that can be neatly exploited by tough melee units. The Gunner is brutal at melee, but can't perform great burst damage at range. The Annihilator has neither of these weaknesses, but instead is the most fragile unit on the team. Nerfing him further, to the point where he would be unable to take out an 800 HP unit while scrolled, would be a huge blow to the overall damage output of the team. Sworded archers can two-shot most of your team as well, and there are 3 of them! Why should the Dwarves not have just ONE high-damage ranged unit?
And yes, unstacking the auras would not be a "huge change" and that's exactly the point. Huge changes on relatively balanced teams (and I do believe they are relatively balanced) just exacerbates the problem by confusing players and shifting the balance of power too far in the other direction. What we need at this point are not grand, sweeping hacks, but rather subtle taps in the desired direction. Removing stacking will weaken the Fortress, I promise. We want to slightly weaken the strongest teams, not pound them into the dirt. =)
In summary: taps, not hacks.
Oh BTW I forgot to mention it at the start, but the TF2 has horrible numbers! Most teams you can do the math in your head, but with the TF2 you really need a calculator...
Are you seriously calling Tribe, Dwarf, and Shaolin numbers easy? Council vs. Dark Elves had a nice mathematical simplicity, but everything since has been a royal numerical cluster-pluck. =D
Oh BTW I forgot to mention it at the start, but the TF2 has horrible numbers! Most teams you can do the math in your head, but with the TF2 you really need a calculator...
Are you seriously calling Tribe, Dwarf, and Shaolin numbers easy? Council vs. Dark Elves had a nice mathematical simplicity, but everything since has been a royal numerical cluster-pluck. =D
Keeping that in mind, I vote that we buff the witch's corpse explosion to 70.51% damage.
It sounds like he's saying that you can have your Annihilator "push" units onto the train tracks and then send an expendable dwarf run across the map to stand on their train switch to get the kill/stomps without triggering the racial. I didn't see anything in what he said to get the conclusion you came to.
I was commenting based on my own experience, not just what was said. I thought an end run onto your train button directly by an enemy unit already caused enraged, but my memory here could be faulty.
Some interesting suggestions. I largely agree with your comments on the tribe.
Maybe TF2 needs a small nerf, but I couldn't disagree more with your suggestion to stop the medics self-healing. This would probably make them the very worst team in the game IMO. TF2 only have two healers and the sadvich sucks at healing. This change would force you to have both healers out at once. Only have one at your disposal and you're at an extreme disadvantage throughout the game. Any damage to the medic and you're screwed. And if you lose a medic so you only have one left, you're also screwed. Removing the self heal would make TF2 extremely weak IMO, especially against the dwarves. The suggestion to reduce the range of the buff from 2 to 3 wouldn't help much for TF2's ability to turtle. You'd just have to move them closer. It'd make them less successful for agression, but I don't think that's really needed. Personally, all I think TF2 need in terms of balance is to take away the medic's 10% magic resist. Maybe this seems insignificant, but it makes them far more prone to AoE and magic attack. I can't tell you how many times a medic has just survived because of its 10% magic resist.
Agreed about the Dwarves.
I don't think that the proposed wraith buff is enough. It would still be very hard to feed it against a good player. I think the wraith buff combined with a phantom buff might do the trick though. Two pretty smalll buffs is all they really need, as they're only slightly weaker than other teams.
As for the council, I also agree there's probably no change needed. Maybe give the wizard a 20% magic resist to aid in the TF2 matchup.
I agree that it's too early to truly talk about the Shaolin yet, but I completely disagree with the poisoner idea. Personally I think your suggestion would make it near-useless (or situationaly OP). The poisoner is great because the debuff is impossible to remove by the other teams. This poison is easy to remove. Also, the debuff is very important for the Shaolin because their base damage is low. This proposal would make the Poisoner very weak IMO. And I say situationally OP because if you don't have a healer in your hand and you're continually unlucky with your draw (it happens occasionally) all you can do it watch as all your units slowly die from the poision. So I'd keep the poisoner as she is. I do think the Shaolin might need a buff though. I'd suggest, if further playing proves this to be the case, a buff to the Shadow so it can revive units to 300 (maybe even 350) health rather than 100. This makes them slightly less susceptible to counterattack.