Feedback on Shaolin balance
Okay so here I my perception of them thus far.
Weaknesses:
1. AOE extreme vulnurability due to extremly average/poor healing options.
2. Combos hard to pull off offensively because of needed APs, lack of range/move distances
3. Combo bonus damage of 200 is the equivilant to 1AP so it's just as effective to shoot a second time. The combo is useful if moving towards the opponent/center is where you wanted to end up. However +200 isn't a large amount and you will still need one more hit unless your first hit was from a buffed poisoner.
4. Monks are very hard to utilize other than as fodder/meat shields.
5. taoists have to focus on healing and staying safe, and so can't really use their offensive debuff often (extreme rare utility, except in a mirror). The last thing you want to do us suicicde a Taoist to remove an enemy buff, see healing weakness.
6. Given low healing taosits end up on sword tiles and/or getting rune metal to keep up. Making you not benefit offensively from your attack tile, or making you have to use one runemetal on healing instead of attacking.
7. Your AOE output is quite limited due to range 2 strikes and low damage output of 100/50/25 compared to 100/66 of other teams. Range two also means you often get one shot less than the opponent if they are doing AOe hit and runs, forcing you to engage (see major healing weakness)
8. Combo potion won't be as good as a scroll unless you get a second attacker for a 3-combo, because you need to heal, you can't always control the timing of the potion. But because you need/want a 3-combo (ideally with a wind blade) you can't always plan it to use it as easily as you would, say, tribe-meat.
Strengths
1. If you can push forward and keep your guys spread far enough apart from AOE threats, you can be quite hard to attack due to your defensive combo damage
2. The shadow is a great unit, range three move and attack makes it useful. Raising is often not going to result in a permanent unit, but the threat it creates will suck 2AP from the opponent to KO/Stomp it. It's damage output is very low, which often means you can't 2AP ko something when doing a combo, which means units you ko can't be stolen because you are missing 1AP to heal or run it away, but I see this as potentially an issue of the combo damage itself being potentially too low rather than his attack too weak.
3. Bamboo are excellent and very versatile, range stomp with it, block squares, steal crystal attack squares, deny enemy attack bonus square, combine with dragon...
Overall, I think the team has potential to be great, but right now is lacking. Their weaknesses are too big. It only becomes worse when you face a team like TF2 which is, in my opinion, too strong overall but also has an excellent grenadier, flamer, heavy who all do AOe and then a spy who will punish you if you leave gaps in your guys to try to mitigate the AOE attacks. I'd be quite surprised if a month from now the stats of TF2 kills over Shaolin didn't prove this.
Changes
here are my change suggestions, obviously many possible fixes could be done, but here are the ones I'd prefer-- give the team some flavor and originality:
1. Make the monk move 3 on its first move, 2 afterwards. He can now get into the fray and use his ability and assist with combos.
2. Wind blade: give her 10% magical armor and make its attack do 100/66/66 instead of 100/50/25. Why the armor? Most AOE in the game is magical, giving her a bit of armor will let her resist bombardment and get better healing. It will also let you place the helmets on other units (like poisoners) to make them also a bit more AOE resistant.
3. Make combo damage do +250 not +200. That extra 50 makes a big difference and it will help many situations to where you save 1AP to get your KO (hint: poisiner). It will make setting up combos that much more useful and beneficial, and indirectly buff wind blade too, to make it more useful because it tags 3 targets.
4. Taoist: allow his debuff effect to work at a range of 3, but keep his healing to range 2.
5. Poisoner is fine as-is
6. Shadow is fine as-is
These changes would still leave them very vulnurable to AOE (TF2 and Dwarves in particular-- who also happen to be the strongest teams right now; probably not a coincidence btw)-- but even though they would remain very weak at healing, they would gain, from above, more aggressive power and better benefits from combos as well as better ease at achieving them (monk movement).
Optional stuff, healing
if we do need to increase their healing, here is my suggestion. Please note that in a way I do sort of like that they suck at healing, but IF it just has to get better or else they will not be competitive, here are my suggestions, only ONE of these should be picked:
1. Give the Taoist combo-healing, if a second Taoist heals the same target, it gains the combo bonus in life. This will only make a difference when you are healing a monk/shadow, or if you are reviving a KO guy (first Taoist makes him 100 life, second one gives 200+200 (or 250 if you increase the combo bonus) x 2 = 800 or 900 life from the second Taoist. Letting two taosits working together permit you to fully reheal most guys.
2. Have the combo potion not just heal the target, but also heal, some smaller amount, all units adjacent to it (8 squares around it). Splash healing might be 200 or 400 life.
3. Give the bamboo some healing aura, it could heal your units that are adjacent to it by 100 life a turn. Letting you also use them as a way to counter-fight AOE abusive players who just do hit and runs/raids.
4. Same as 3, but instead give the healing aura to either the combo-potion aura (so as long as the blueflames persist, units next to her will heal a little every turn).
5. Give the healing aura to the Shaolin. However then I'd be concerned that they become too much like the dwarves.,, so this is my least favorite.
any one of these would be unique and also resolve their weakness.
hope some of my input proves useful!
kindly,
Raz
I honestly think DW needs a good nerfing, but that's just me. >.> SL have a hard time cracking even just a plain old bubbled naked grenadier!
What if the shaolin team had 6ap to spend rather than 5? Just a suggestion.
As I reported in another thread, Zekers, Robot's top player, is #1 in Shaolin wins. He has never competed on the gamecenter leaderboards before, that I have seen, so you have to wonder if this is a reaction to the balance critiques so far. He is sure to have his own thoughts on balance. This is both good and bad. Good because he is really smart and knows the team better than we do at this point, and bad because he is only one dude. I hope he stops in to tell us what he thinks soon, and shares any strategies he thinks we are missing.
I'm done talking balance until he appears...dont know that there is any point to it until he engages with us (which he probably will).
As I reported in another thread, Zekers, Robot's top player, is #1 in Shaolin wins. He has never competed on the gamecenter leaderboards before, that I have seen, so you have to wonder if this is a reaction to the balance critiques so far. He is sure to have his own thoughts on balance. This is both good and bad. Good because he is really smart and knows the team better than we do at this point, and bad because he is only one dude. I hope he stops in to tell us what he thinks soon, and shares any strategies he thinks we are missing.
I'm done talking balance until he appears...dont know that there is any point to it until he engages with us (which he probably will).
Is Zekers also his GC tag? If not, what is it (if that's allowed to go public)?
As I reported in another thread, Zekers, Robot's top player, is #1 in Shaolin wins. He has never competed on the gamecenter leaderboards before, that I have seen, so you have to wonder if this is a reaction to the balance critiques so far. He is sure to have his own thoughts on balance. This is both good and bad. Good because he is really smart and knows the team better than we do at this point, and bad because he is only one dude. I hope he stops in to tell us what he thinks soon, and shares any strategies he thinks we are missing.
I'm done talking balance until he appears...dont know that there is any point to it until he engages with us (which he probably will).
Is Zekers also his GC tag? If not, what is it (if that's allowed to go public)?
All I know is that "Zekers" is atop the Shaolin leaderboard with, last I checked, 29 wins.
Are those 29 wins on random or in the league? Makes a huge difference! Random wins really don't count for much, honeslty.
Great post by razcrux. most sage.
thanks!
Are those 29 wins on random or in the league? Makes a huge difference! Random wins really don't count for much, honeslty.
Zekers doesnt play in the League, but I'm sure he has some top notch opponents that he plays with. For example, he used to play league co-founder Drvumad quite a bit.
Fantastic writeup, razcrux! I agree with just about every single point you made.
My only departure from your list is in your "Optional Stuff" section. Optional #1 I like, but 2-5 aren't my cup of tea. I'd be in favor of giving the Taoist 3-range healing, since I don't feel like it's that important to keep as an elf exclusive, but from the other threads it seems like most people aren't in favor of that tweak.
# 3 (combo to 250) is probably too much if you do the other stuff too.
Little stuff matters a lot, and the monk move, taoist heal, and windblade buff are 3 not so little things. Dont want Shaolin OP.
For the optional stuff, Taoist combo healing seems like a no brainer to me since it fits the team flavor. Moreovoer, it wont impact balance since it will be used quite rarely, and, in those rare instances, will still only save an ap.
There should also be combo points for a shadow resurrection and Taoist healing together.
Double post
Combo healing with shadow is a nice touch! Note however that shadow will strip all your upgrades, so not always useful on defense but great if you pull it off on offense.
I also agree that we don't want the team suddenly OP. So not increasing combo damage and doing all the rest could be enough.
I know that the last thing this team needs right now is nerfs, but once they are sufficiently buffed through the way/s mentioned here (including a range 3 monk) I think the monk's debuff should disappear on that monk's death. For an underpowered team, the blot of having a unit having its HP permanently reduced by 1/4 may not be noticeable, but once the Shaolin get a little more competitive I think we might start noticing it a whole lot more.
While I'm certainly not suggesting that they shouldn't buff shaolin, I will say that dramatically shifting your strategy to suit the team (or even person) you're playing against is important. Shaolin is a capable team but with the steepest learning curve to date.
Combo damage really shines against crystals. Have your shadow lead a squad of support units to attack a crystal and your opponent will have little choice but to come to you to stop you from comboing the crap out of their crystals. You can then shift your combos onto the defending units. Alternatively, they might try to rush you back but this shouldn't work either. I counter-rushed against a council crystal rush and my combo damage outpaced him and won me the game in 20 turns. Bamboo on the assault tile is key here.
Everyone who has said that AE damage is very effective against shaolin is right. They are also right that the Monk is a poor offensive unit. However, AE teams are exactly where the monk shines. Keep your units spaced out with a 2+monk out front, and the splash damage does nothing. Keep the monk healed and slowly whittle your opponents down by killing key units, using debuffs to make it easier. Don't summon that many units, and pounce on their AE as fast as possible.
Shaolin vs Shaolin is different of course because they counter each other's strengths so completely, so that matchup is basically a completely different animal. I find that it is all about careful strategy and capitalizing on position (like chess).
Also one point I'd like to make is that the taoist has the best offensive capability of any healer unit so far. They have to be relatively close to the action to keep key units alive, so its not that hard to move them up and capitalize on a combo. I wouldn't use them to assault units for obvious reasons, but when supported by other units they can add plenty to an attack.
Windblade is weak, although imo very dangerous in shaolin vs shaolin. All the units are useful in the right situations.
I completely agree that they can be a great crystal attacking team... Dropping bamboo on crystal squares while pounding is a serious mega play! Could have added that to the strengths, but at the moment their weaknesses I feel still prevent this strategy from really working as it can be very brittle.
I think they were designed with council in mind. Monk, just like the knight, is a tank, just less sturdy but has more offensive utility (combos + debuff). Poisoner is like archer - kills 960 hp units in 3 hits when runemetaled. Less total damage output and hp, but permanent debuff against all other factions + good combos from range. Windblade is like wizard, except AOE is slightly different/less powerful but has good combo potential. Taoist is a priest without racial bonus, but again is better offensively. Shadow is nothing like ninja, but is nonetheless very powerful and will usually require quite a bit of items/units to kill him, especially if shielded. Consumables of the two factions are in a way similar too with AOE dmg, remote stomp, etc.
Because of the racial bonus, SL had to be less sturdy than council and is definitely much harder to master. But once that happens...
I think they were designed with council in mind. Monk, just like the knight, is a tank, just less sturdy but has more offensive utility (combos + debuff). Poisoner is like archer - kills 960 hp units in 3 hits when runemetaled. Less total damage output and hp, but permanent debuff against all other factions + good combos from range. Windblade is like wizard, except AOE is slightly different/less powerful but has good combo potential. Taoist is a priest without racial bonus, but again is better offensively. Shadow is nothing like ninja, but is nonetheless very powerful and will usually require quite a bit of items/units to kill him, especially if shielded. Consumables of the two factions are in a way similar too with AOE dmg, remote stomp, etc.
Because of the racial bonus, SL had to be less sturdy than council and is definitely much harder to master. But once that happens...
Aratribal, respect for putting to rest the Tribe is weak nonsense long before there was enough data to do it. Knowing your ability, I'm willing to believe its possible you might be able to do it again. Zekers, when he shares his thoughts, may already have that same kind of evidence, depending on who he is playing.
But how many games does it take? I do have 6 Shaolin wins, and should have 10 wins in a few days, against probably 5 or so losses. Many of the wins are in same faction matchups, while my record in outside faction matchups isnt so hot. Isnt that enough to form a meaningful opinion? If Shaolin can be "mastered" why do so few of us (only you?) feel like we are on the road to doing that?
I completely agree that they can be a great crystal attacking team... Dropping bamboo on crystal squares while pounding is a serious mega play! Could have added that to the strengths, but at the moment their weaknesses I feel still prevent this strategy from really working as it can be very brittle.
I won a game with this the other day.
I was playing shaolin vs dwarves on the single (one each) crystal map, and getting slaughtered, like I always do with shaolin. I am down to my last 5 or so units. He's still got 10 or so. I gave up and dropped bamboo on both assault squares and just went at his crystal. Monks are useless but the rest, being ranged, were good for attacking the crystal. It took him a little bit to realize the danger he was in but then he began to defend hard: bubbling the crystal, puttting units around it... He tried hacking at the bamboo but gave up when he realized it wasn't going to get done quickly enough.
My last move with only a nearly dead windblade left. He has the crystal surrounded and about 2000 left on it.
- Dragon on the crystal, unbubbling it and wounding the engineer in front of it.
- Dragon on the crystal, puts 1100 damage on the crystial and almost drops the engineer
- Move the windblade in front of the engineer
- Drop the engineer
- Hit the Crystal over the enginer. Victory.
Look the Shaolin can win, and they are not useless. I too am winning games with them, quick matches are, as usual, too easy. So i do most of my games in the league or as friendly matches vs league players. I don't deny that part of their weakness is lack of experience with the new play style. The Shaolin is all about slowly advancing, finding a weak part in your positions, and then using the combo-bonus as a means to get free APs.
what do I mean by a free ap? So the combo bonus is 200 damage (more if the target was poisoned), which essentially means that 200 is about 1AP. So if you move up one guy to combo, the move was "free" because he inflicts a bonus 200.
my wins with the team revolve around two general directions: 1. Massive crystal damage via bamboo stealing/securing key squares and/or combo damage on the crystal.
or via slow and methodical pressure into one side or section of the enemy. One key difference is that with another faction you would want to KO a target, and then if you had two AP left, run in, stomp it, run back. However this team, assuming you still have wind blades, shouldn't do that. Instead if you can KO a victim (or several) use those last APs to position yourself further forward by moving up additional cover-fire support. If the opponent can't resurect a KOd unit and kill you in the same action, you have no reason to stomp it. Better instead to huddle around it. Using the shadow ability " just because I can" on a guy who won't be more than 100 life is not actually always a good idea. Spend that last AP moving a poisoner or second wind blade up to provide cover over the writhing KOd guy, pressure a new puppet, or get a healer further forward.
these two styles are different enough that they are unique. And I may find yet even better ways to play them. I really like this team, btw, in case that wasn't clear. They just have a weakness to AOE which is, in my opinion, too severe.
AOE is extremly powerful in this game (except maybe vs tribe who can chain heal). So teams with too strong AOE tend to be OP rather quickly (TF2 and DW). The issue just gets exasperated when a team with a vulnurability to AOE shows up.
As for those who think Shaolin are similar to Concil I really don't agree. All teams have similar function units, but the Council is all about the power units: Archers, Ninja, or a wizard if you buff it up. Whereas the Shaolin is about the group. Council can heal like crazy, Shaolin like, well, shXt. This creates very different game play. If I face the council as Shaolin my first goal is to put crystal pressure on, because there is no way you will win a straight up unit swap...
As its well known that SL are weak to Aoe, what if there was some sort of life back mechanic for whenever combos are chained? You won't have to worry about too much healing via your Taoist except maybe on the first unit who attacks since they only set up the combos.
But then they would be like the dark elves. I'd rather that they got a bit of armor, like 10% magic (and physical?) on the wind blade than life leaching, at least that's me. :-)
...Whereas the Shaolin is about the group. Council can heal like crazy, Shaolin like, well, shXt. This creates very different game play. If I face the council as Shaolin my first goal is to put crystal pressure on, because there is no way you will win a straight up unit swap...
In other words, you are saying that council's and SL's team bonuses are different? Well, duhh.
I think they may be a strong enough team if played properly, but I think properly for shaolin means defensively. Therefore I am not finding them very exciting.
Aratribal, respect for putting to rest the Tribe is weak nonsense long before there was enough data to do it. Knowing your ability, I'm willing to believe its possible you might be able to do it again. Zekers, when he shares his thoughts, may already have that same kind of evidence, depending on who he is playing.
But how many games does it take? I do have 6 Shaolin wins, and should have 10 wins in a few days, against probably 5 or so losses. Many of the wins are in same faction matchups, while my record in outside faction matchups isnt so hot. Isnt that enough to form a meaningful opinion? If Shaolin can be "mastered" why do so few of us (only you?) feel like we are on the road to doing that?
I am by no means saying that I have mastered the team-I completed maybe 5 games vs randoms so far. I am indeed very humbled by SL's potential, and I feel it will take at least 10-20 league games (which I don't know if I have time for) for me to get a good glimpse on how they stand vs other factions.
I'll tell you what I know for sure: at this stage of the game, 1 week or so after SL release, I still don't know who to runemetal on SL team. I don't know whether 1 runemetal on Taoist is a good idea. I don't know if shadow is worth a helm. I don't know if they are better at crystal rushing or turtling. I have no clue how to play vs each individual faction.
The reason you have so few wins vs other factions may be indeed that SL is weak. But it could also be because you have no idea how to play SL at this point.
I very often runemetal a unit that I've stolen from the other team. (Chieftain, Archer) I use potions without worrying about wasting their circumstantial offensive potential- Dragons are the Shaolin scrolls. Consequently I don't runemetal Taoists. Shadow gets a helm if I'm not facing CL or TR, and if there's a forward attack tile on the map he might get runemetal.
The shadow scares me..
Shaolin is very powerful when used right. It just takes more strategy because positioning is extremely important due to their team bonus
Moontz, ill be happy to take a few Kung fu punches to the face in the name of science. Nothing I have tried has worked for me reliably. Just sent you an invite in game.







Based on my games so far, I agree the "combo" team bonus is a flop. I want to use it so badly but it's never strategically optimal. Having the units be more maneuverable would help a lot. The monk needs a reach of two. Could you make it so that his HP-cut ability only works if he's within 1 square? He's just not fun to use at all as is.
Shaolin is a very squishy team. They don't have longevity and sustainability like the dwarves (although pretty much no one measures up to Dorf) I'm always in panic mode to hurry up and be aggressive because I know I can't hold off an aggressive opponent. The Shadow and excellent consumables make up for a LOT of their shortcomings, which is great, but they NEED more firepower via their unit arsenal. Pick a unit, any unit, and beef 'em up.
HA username: darkozl