Dwarf balance consensus
But before anything else is fixed, DWs really need 2 things above all others. Their racial trait and luck of the draw.
*Have some1 even seen the racial trait do something? If you have, please tell me.
*DWs need to draw a balanced hand. Otherwise they will have a upphill battle for the rest of the game. While this applies for everyone, other teams can still "function" while they wait for the wished draws. When DWs get such hands, you just get sad... And it doesnt get better with your equipments when you want to save them for you gunners, paladins and annhilator while you only got engieers and grenadiers on the field / hand. Engineers just cant do anything themselves at all. As for gunners, they can do something. But thats becuase they are ranged 3.
Ya the racial is pretty negligible compared to the other teams' perk and never something I strategize around BUT with the boost to the Gunner they now finally have a high-damage option so making the racial any higher might make him OP.
i noticed i wrote wrong there (the last sentece you quoted of me). I meant the grenadier and not the gunner. Gunner doest have range 3, he would rape everything then S:.
Its rarely you can use his AoE attack on a power boost tile anyway. Maybe on the teleport map on a regular basis but no other map, since usually both teams get one easy-to-get powerboost tile.
Or you just remake the racial ability to something else that fits them. But dont know what.
people that think gunner is bad and grenadier is good should check things up. Out of all non-super units. Gunner is easily top 3 best now. Since his AoE is just devistating, easily the best in the game currently. He got no weakness (like the grenadier and archer, which makes less damage melee), its actually a strength that he can deal high damage to a single target unit aswell (even if its melee range).
Context is important. Gunners are devastating against the Dark Elves especially because of their lack of physical defense. The Grenadier is more often the better choice against the Tribe to soften up more units, requiring chain heals, and dinging those Shaman hiding in the back of their ranks.
Anyway, those are my thoughts (IMO!), and take them or leave them - I suppose Robot will do as it sees fit.
I fail to see how this is any diffrent and more unpredictable than the other spells. Aganst DE you're guaranteed to see at least two units pop up after being ko'd and pop up with more health. How can you prepare for this anymore than the drill? Dwarfs have trouble stomping, so that DE spell is deadly and very effective... And it's just as simple as the drill imo, perhaps even more so.
Even more importantly YOU are not guaranteed to lose two units to the drill. That's a crazy statement. Many people don't even use it on units! And there are some situations where dwarfs use it, but cant stomp, taking a gamble u can't heal.
I mean, your arguments suggest too me you haven't played dwarfs or have played them very infrequently. No offense but some of your statements are just plain false.
I agree with the above. It does seem to be the DE players who mainly dislike it. Prob cause I'm sure a drill wiping out a wraith could be frustrating. But trust me... No more so than losing an annhilator to a necro + scroll.
Still not finding grenadier to give my wanted results. Also its not too uncommon to have 2 shamans out. When you attack twice with the grenadier, he only needs to heal once to repair that damage. But it depends on the situation i guess. I've found knocking several units out at the same time with the gunner and go on a stomping spree is a better choice. But i'll try what you suggested if i can find the right situation.
Anyway, so you feel the Dwarves are OP and therefore should win most every time? Remember RE is just going for balance here and from what I see out in pub play the Dwarves are simply more competitive but in no way the new team to beat. Do you see the Dorfs winning all the time now?
No, I don't think you've read the other posts by tabby and I on why we're arguing against the pulv. We're criticizing it from the perspective of raw power vs. deep strategy. I don't enjoy receiving or dishing out a pulv. "It's not fun" is basically the argument. It's not a matter of OP on the whole. Others find it fun, though, so it's pretty much an issue of personal preference. We've pretty much said everything that could be said on the issue though. It's in Robot's hands now.
Engineers just cant do anything themselves at all.
Let's lose the Paladin aura, and add an Engineer rez! Shock paddles, anyone? :)
No, I don't think you've read the other posts by tabby and I on why we're arguing against the pulv. We're criticizing it from the perspective of raw power vs. deep strategy. I don't enjoy receiving or dishing out a pulv. "It's not fun" is basically the argument. It's not a matter of OP on the whole. Others find it fun, though, so it's pretty much an issue of personal preference. We've pretty much said everything that could be said on the issue though. It's in Robot's hands now.
Oh ok, no didn't read too carefully the prior posts, yes since you're speaking in the 'IMO' voice and say it's not fun, no one is gonna convince you otherwise other than perhaps you, maybe after giving the Dwarves more play time. Overall I love that there's 4 races and a 'random' pub game truly does feel varied so when the Dwarves pop up as my race I know I now have a very-close-to-even chance to win (or at least get some serious licks and go down fighting). Pre-buff I would sometimes find myself in absurdly laughable games where the other guy just obliterated me from start to finish like a cat's plaything (especially void monks) but now that never happens.
No, I don't think you've read the other posts by tabby and I on why we're arguing against the pulv. We're criticizing it from the perspective of raw power vs. deep strategy. I don't enjoy receiving or dishing out a pulv. "It's not fun" is basically the argument. It's not a matter of OP on the whole. Others find it fun, though, so it's pretty much an issue of personal preference. We've pretty much said everything that could be said on the issue though. It's in Robot's hands now.
Oh ok, no didn't read too carefully the prior posts, yes since you're speaking in the 'IMO' voice and say it's not fun, no one is gonna convince you otherwise other than perhaps you, maybe after giving the Dwarves more play time. Overall I love that there's 4 races and a 'random' pub game truly does feel varied so when the Dwarves pop up as my race I know I now have a very-close-to-even chance to win (or at least get some serious licks and go down fighting). Pre-buff I would sometimes find myself in absurdly laughable games where the other guy just obliterated me from start to finish like a cat's plaything (especially void monks) but now that never happens.
Personally i find it allot of fun ;)
And anyone who says it isn't strategic is either holding a grudge or doing it wrong.
On a side not, you can now toss me in the gunner > bomber group. Ever since i started focusing on gunners instead up bombers i've really done some damage. It was a huge surprise to see a fully equiped gunner dominate the opposing team... Perhaps being even deadlier than the annihalator! I always end up sacraficing the poor chap, but he never goes down without a brutal fight!
Engineers just cant do anything themselves at all.
Let's lose the Paladin aura, and add an Engineer rez! Shock paddles, anyone? :)
That would actually be pretty interesting... But if both Paladins and Engineers can rez that would be OP.
Just running with the idea of engineers being able to rez, what if they had only a range of 1, so they had to be directly adjacent to their target? This would add another layer of complexity to the engineer as well as bringing dwarves up to a more competitive level. It might make them too good in conjunction with other buffs...I dunno.
Just running with the idea of engineers being able to rez, what if they had only a range of 1, so they had to be directly adjacent to their target? This would add another layer of complexity to the engineer as well as bringing dwarves up to a more competitive level. It might make them too good in conjunction with other buffs...I dunno.
This is exactly how I envision it. Give it range 1, and have it restore a negligible amount of health, say 25. It wouldn't be much of a game-breaker in most mid to late game circumstances, since the rezzed unit would be so fragile, but it would make for some interesting dive opportunities with engineer backup. Most importantly, it would give the dwarves something to bolster their frail early game, where a KO'd paladin can basically mean "game over".
I think the loss of Paladin aura would be a reasonable compensation, effectively shifting a small amount of focus from that (already awesome) unit onto the Engineer... I think it's the perfect solution.
I would not mind losing the paladin aura. It's nice to have for dwarven players, but it takes away from the simple elegance of the math that used to be. This change would make dwarves pretty damn awesome...but not TOO awesome so I think it could work. RE, are you listening???
I would not mind losing the paladin aura. It's nice to have for dwarven players, but it takes away from the simple elegance of the math that used to be. This change would make dwarves pretty damn awesome...but not TOO awesome so I think it could work. RE, are you listening???
I think the biggest obstacle to this becoming a reality is the additional art/coding that would be required... I believe SixOkay mentioned in an earlier thread that they are very open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics (like the paladin throwing her hammer!). I'm guessing that this might fall in the "hammer-throwing" category, unfortunately.
Yes I think so too. It's too bad, but hey, they can only do so much for us.
I don't think they are opposed to the new mechanics at all. They don't like to do it, but they would if it makes it better or fixes a problem.
Mayhaps the Engineer can have the aura shifted to her in some way instead? The paladin is just too big of a target. The more I think about it, the more I think the Engineer could have either a range-1 resurrection or feed whatever boost tile she's standing on to her teammates.
I would not mind losing the paladin aura. It's nice to have for dwarven players, but it takes away from the simple elegance of the math that used to be. This change would make dwarves pretty damn awesome...but not TOO awesome so I think it could work. RE, are you listening???
I think the biggest obstacle to this becoming a reality is the additional art/coding that would be required... I believe SixOkay mentioned in an earlier thread that they are very open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics (like the paladin throwing her hammer!). I'm guessing that this might fall in the "hammer-throwing" category, unfortunately.
To be fair, they said that they are open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics, and then gave the Paladin an aura and the Pulverizer a debuff. The only real number adjustments was the aoe buff to the Gunner and range increase for the Engineer's bubble.
Not that I'm complaining, I just thought it was humorous. Was kind of curious if anyone else had caught that.
To be fair, they said that they are open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics, and then gave the Paladin an aura and the Pulverizer a debuff. The only real number adjustments was the aoe buff to the Gunner and range increase for the Engineer's bubble.
Not that I'm complaining, I just thought it was humorous. Was kind of curious if anyone else had caught that.
I noticed it, but neither of those required much in the way of new sprites, animations, or coded interactions -- just the Paladin's pulsing glow and the "breaking shield" icon for the pulverizer. An Engineer rez would be an entirely new action requiring entirely new visuals. For a small team, I imagine that it's a lot more work to do something like that than just say "all nearby units get +5% resistance"
I'm not convinced the Dwarves need another rez option in the Engineer. I'd be much happier with the Grenadier's attack being used as a simple stomp much like what's found with the Necromancer and Witch but without the fancy side-effects. I think the Engineer's range-3 shield is a solid compensation for the lack of additional rez option.
possible buffs to the engineers :
*share racial trait bonus to others in a 3x3 grid (assuming their racial trait gets buffed)
*when they stand on for example an power boost tile, they share that bonus to all units in a 3x3 grid (feels really strong tho)
*your crystals gets increased resistance while there are engineers on the boards (usually since you cant do anything with your engineers, cant you minimize the damage done with a global defensive aura to your own crystals?). 1 engineer on the field = 0/0 resistance. 2 engineers on the field = 20/20. 3 engineers = 50/50 resistance. When its 3 engineers on the field, your opponent will want to chase those hidden engineers.
*when attacking an target with something equipped, they steal one item.
the first 2 suggestions, engineers will still be useless by themselves. The 3rd suggestion atleast your crystals wont die in 2 seconds if you get bad draws. Since you can hold out longer to get those wished cards. But if you draw a balanced hand, you will never loose by your crystals getting destroyed. So in some ways it feels too strong. the 4th suggestion gives you the ability to atleast weaken your enemies and your engineers will become stronger, allowing them to fight back abit. Feels OP tho since they can just go steal all your opponents equipment and just run over him later on.
You could give engineers ress, but they will still be useless. Since they will ress a unit to 100hp. Next round it will die anyway, also makes the bubble cast range meaningless. Since they will still need to run around like crazy (assuming by the suggestion above its only cast range 1.
a 5th suggestion could be to give engineers range 3 for defensive use (but gives aggressive use aswell, range 3 is never bad) and to compensate for such a huge buff to the engineer, remake the grenadier to a melee unit (the only reason grenadier is decent is because of his range 3). Using bombs in close combat he actually becomes a terrorist instead of a grenadier xD.
But going with Karaoke's suggestion works aswell.
I think everyone is almost in agreement that the gunner is fine now, and the range on the engineer bubble is good. We seem to mostly think that the best strategy for attacking the dwarves is focus the paladins, which was probably increased by the aura they were given last patch. The pulverizer is still bein discussed but I personally think its fine as a one time spell (I'd still rather see it stomp and it's damage reduced).
Somehow, we need to take the heat off the paladin. There aren't a lot of options to do this. The dwarves are pretty darn good at crystal hunting, so I'm not sure giving more power to that strategy is a good idea.
Offensively or defensively, they need just another small nudge. I personally think offensively is the way to go. They turtle well, especially with the paladin wall, but there has to be other ways you can set up your board, or else you get our one trick pony we have now.
-- Are they too reliant on the Paladin?
Every team is reliant on its healer, I dont think its overly problematic compared to others.
The 5% aura resist makes a gigantic difference to how the dwarves can be played, gives all the normal units nearby a chance to survive an exchange, very similar to the way a Dark Elf spirit bomb adds those bits of health to take them over 800hp or even 900.
It really moves the Dwarves much closer to the theme of the team being able to resist a bit of damage.
-- How are you guys liking the new Pulverizer?
I'd still prefer a ranged rez or stomp but the 'owwww' factor still makes me grin.
-- Falloff changes (less AOE damage vs crystals with the assault tile bonus)
Hated losing the easy option of long bombing a crystal but it has made for much more interesting matches.
-- Grenadier and Annihilator diagonal damage increases
Not so bothered about that as the Gunner rocks my world!
I would like to see the engineer become a bit more versatile, many good ideas listed in this thread and others. Personally I think giving it move 3 would awesome but do accept that something else would have to be reduced to compensate.
Overall an excellent balancing, it has made the Dwarves competitive. I do think that alot of loud backlash was always going to happen from non-Dwarf players as its hard to swallow when the team you are used to whipping grows teeth and bites back.
Overall an excellent balancing, it has made the Dwarves competitive. I do think that alot of loud backlash was always going to happen from non-Dwarf players as its hard to swallow when the team you are used to whipping grows teeth and bites back.
I think this sums up the majority of persisting complaints at this point. I play a small group of skilled friends regularly and the Dorfs are absolutely a force now, our matches always go to the last man standing whereas pre-buff the Dorf's would always be the first to run out of 'good stuff' and ultimately get squashed. They turtle so good it's maddening but then that's an increased strength of the Dwarf team now, they are very defensive and you just have to plan around that if you want beat them.
If its DWs vs X and both sides draws good. DWs will have the upper hand from the start, they are really strong and the opponent will have an upphill battle the whole game. But i mean.. how often will you actually draw a good order of cards? When DWs draws bad, its a death sentence and you can already see your defeat. So somehow, DWs are the strongest team out there, yet the weakest. And thats really weird. So somehow you need to fix this without buffing them.
While all team gets trouble by bad hands, DWs gets it much worse. Since you got your certain units you want to equip aswell, when your forced to equip something else then those standard units it will just create more problems.
With DWs, you want :
(for example you would prefer 3 paladins out in the field then one, but it takes time. But the most important thing is to get each role out there since DWs are all about cooperation power).
*paladin
*engineer (engineers are worthless themselves, but if you got a wanted target to bubble, its epic. Since bubble is probably the best ability out there so far).
*gunner / annhilator / grenadier (while i personally dont think grenadier aint strong enough. Some people really like the grenadier more then the gunner. The most important thing is to have one of these out which can cooperate with paladins and engineers).
If you get stuck with a bunch of paladins / engineers your stuck. If you get no paladins you cant use DWs defensive abilities at all (but lacking healers is something all teams will have problems with, except DE). If you get your damage dealer (gunner, annhilator, grenadier) and paladin. You will still wont function properly since you dont have any engineers out.
While you can question other things about DWs (for example the annhilator). You still need to fix the luck of the draw so it functions like the other teams, since otherwise its hard to balance what small parts is left (like the racial trait, i will never stop complaining about the racial trait since its still useless).
O/T Question: Does pulvarizer ignore a shield on its initial hit?
Back to the topic at hand, I think the recent changes made Dwarves at least equal if they can get set up, and they are doing OK in preliminary performance ratings, backing that up. However, they still seem to suffer from difficulties getting set up, and I agree that they now have a bit of a weird feel. I think give the pallies range 3 heal to enhance flexibility in exchange for dialing back the pulvarizer.
I think a better solution would be to give the Pally's aura to the Engenier. It fits thier concept as a support unit, makes them more valuable and reduces the 'eggs in one basket" effect.
I think ranged stomp would put the DW into OP land, especially in combination with the Pulverizer.
if you got a vanilla 800 hp creature with 0 resistance.
if its with shield (880hp 20 physical resistance), it will do 600 * 0.8 damage = 480. Afterwards the shield is removed and the target goes back to 800 hp. So you can say it actually does 400 instead of 480 damage.
spiked shield (880hp 0 physical resistance), it will do 600 damage. and afterwards the shield is removed. So you can say it does 520 damage instead of 600. their max hp goes back to 800. This applies to DE's lifegem aswell.
hope this answers your question art.
And you mean getting the old pulverizer back for range 3 heal? Then DWs will have huge problems to kill VMs again. And i dont think its good giving the paladin any more attention then it already has (probably the most wanted unit on the whole board to get killed out of all teams more or less).
To be fair, they said that they are open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics, and then gave the Paladin an aura and the Pulverizer a debuff...
...I just thought it was humorous. Was kind of curious if anyone else had caught that.
Yeah, I "loled".
To be fair, they said that they are open to tweaking numbers, but not so open to entirely new mechanics, and then gave the Paladin an aura and the Pulverizer a debuff...
...I just thought it was humorous. Was kind of curious if anyone else had caught that.
Yeah, I "loled".
It just goes to show how much the Dwarves SUCKED before.
Can we make our points without flame-baiting sprinkled throughout? That's not productive. A few posts back I noted how it felt cheap to win with the dwarves. Of course to keep things in perspective, I have to remind myself of all the times I was mass range-stomped by council or scroll-stomped by the necro. If you want to refute our points, "u mad cuz you can't win" just isn't going to work.
Flame-bait? Please, come on be serious that's totally not the case, it's largely true that when people suffer a stinging loss they come out here to post about this or that being OP. If you thought I was trying to say anyone is a chump, my apologies I was speaking only in generalities. Anyway, so you feel the Dwarves are OP and therefore should win most every time? Remember RE is just going for balance here and from what I see out in pub play the Dwarves are simply more competitive but in no way the new team to beat. Do you see the Dorfs winning all the time now?