Does anyone know of a useful description of how DE should handle TF2?
If not, I'd be grateful if you'd share here?
Abuse the fact that void monks are unkillable. Spread upgrades around
Redexoskeleton. That's my name in game. Challenge me if you like (I am slightly above average) be sure to mention if it is a friendly or league game
Prioritize the elimination of high-damage units (soldier and pyro), avoid stacking your equipment on any one unit until both jarates are gone, and try to make as many units that can survive 3 attacks as possible (through equipment and soul harvests). If you can apply pressure with your vanilla and +1 units, eventually you can force the TF2 player to burn their jarates for bad trades. Once the jarates are used, stack your remaining equipment on your best units and get the party started.
Don't forget that you have scrolls! Look out for situations where 1 scroll can force multiple respawns, or to take out pesky heavies, or to splash away spies!
Soul bomb 650 hp units to get multiple -1 ap to kill advantages!
Read Oh My Void Monks, my hero academy blog at http://omvm.blogspot.com! Last updated 8 May 2013 - Game Replay tabby_nat(DE) v KevinSpinti(DW)
add me at "moontz" on hero academy if you wish to play me!
Thanks. This is all good.
I updated this with new thoughts and given the latest patches.
Additional comments are always welcome.
Looks pretty good, Art! A few things I would add.
1. While it's implied in the "Key Health Thresholds," I would outright state that besides the speciality of making "monster" Void Monks/other units that are virtually invincible, another key strength of the Dark Elves is splitting defensive upgrades around to make multiple super units. A unit with a single Soulstone/Magical Helm plus a Soul Harvest boost/Mana Vial will often be just as efficient as a unit with two defensive upgrades. I find this strategy most effective in making less squishy, but still low investment Impalers that can make offensive trades, but it works for other units too.
2. Given the Wraith's Base HP buff, a simple Soulstone, or even a 15+ HP boost from a Soul Harvest/Mana Vial, will save the Wraith from being 3HKO'd from 300 HP Magical damage (ex. Runemetaled Necromancer/Witch/Wizard, unupgraded Pyros/Soldiers, etc.)
3. For the Tribe matchup, I'd mention the power of the Axethrower in being 3HKOing even upgraded units, thanks to its damage buff. Void Monks will just barely survive with even a +5 HP boost, but anything else needs over 1000 HP in order to survive. Because of this, I wouldn't hesitate to trade an Impaler for an Axethrower.
Incidentally, it's a little more situational, but the 1025 HP mark might be worth noting, as any non Void Monk unit with 1026+ HP will survive getting 1HKO'd by a Runemetaled/Meated Axe Thrower.
4. I forget who mentioned it on the forum (sorry! >_<) but in addition to Void Monks, upgraded Necromancers are particularly useful in the TF2 matchup, due to their long range attacking/stomping abilities. Also, perhaps more situationally, Wraiths make good Spy killers in my opinion, as they can naturally 3HKO them (Impalers can too, admittedly), but the Wraiths natural 10% Magic resistance + HP boost upon feeding can make it difficult for TF2's magic heavy offense to retaliate.
Also, you don't have to list all the numbers, but I would mention that the player will need to keep different "Key Health Thresholds" in mind due to the Engineer's 30% attack boost.
Thanks MonkeyWarlock, great to get comments from an expert; DE was never my specialty.
I would amend the tribe stuff - the real pain now are the axes, and I think TR actually has a favorable matchup against DE now. An axe can 3 shot any upgraded squishy, and commonly can take out VMs up to 960 in 3 shots. Squishies have no chance. Kill axes as priority if you want to use VMs at all, and if you can't get the axes, a necro needs to be employed. I would trade a scroll and sworded necro for the last 2 vanilla axes, they are such a game changer.
The health point for TF is 935, which allows 20% magic resist units to take 3 shots from an upgraded 300 damage unit (390 damage). Think helmed imps and necros, and gemmed VMs, plus a soul bomb. Mana vials only take you to 930, which is not quite enough. Spies do a base backstab of 800, so any extra will do, but after upgrades they do 1040, which is unreasonable to obtain for a squishy without becoming a prime jar target.
Against Shaolin, the wraith kind of counters the shadow, in that you can quickly nom the rewly raised units.
Thats all I have for now, will post more later. :)
Made some edits, thanks for the comments!
In recent times I've decided to not gear my necros at all unless my hand is forced and I have to give him a sword in order to churn some tiles or just establish some sort of offensive presence on the field due to bad draw. Once that happens, then I feel I need to protect my investment and make him either +2 or +3 depending on the opponent's units.
I think the necro has replaced the wraith as the range stomp sacrifice.
There's something to be said about +3 necros, especially in the TR and TF matchups, where 300 is a reasonable amount of damage to deal. A necro being able to kill and phantom solo is also a significant threat - if he can kill, he can always stomp, and at a further range, with a phantom to gum up the works.
Yeah but any semi-intelligent opponent will not leave a unit within safe range of such a move unless it means forcing a favorable trade or having you spend a scroll..
I think your wrong Jwallyr. The impaler is excellent trade fodder unupgraded. Upgraded, its fiersome power is matched by fragility. It must get closer to kill than the nec. At times, it can be quite hard to use an upgraded impaler while maintaining safety. The truth is that both upgraded impalers and necs are situational to an extent, and the real question is which will typically be more useful in the future, if you arent sure at the precise moment that its convenient to upgrade? I think the answer in that situation is commonly but not always the nec, but in most situations its probably best to try and avoid upgrading if you cant envision the path to usefulness.
Equal parts cur, mud, and gin.
Never shaken, but often stirred.
Serving suggestion: Usually taken with a pinch of salt.
A sworded imp is as much a liability as an asset. Most of the time, you'll have to accept that your imp is going to bite it after stomping the downed enemy unit, and you have to leave the imp in a closer position than the necro to threaten. (5 tile threat range for necro and 4 for imp, with 1 AP of move, and allowing 1 AP for imp to retreat after stomping. If imp does not retreat after stomping, I think it's safe to say that it's unlikely the imp will survive against a reasonably decent player).
I only make sworded imps if I have to churn or if the opponent has a tank on the way (pallies, shadow, high value 20/20 resist units). Against TF and TR in particular, sworded imps are usually overkill, and imps don't have the range advantage over the other side's heavy hitters (pyro, axe). Their expendibility is their threat, if I get a pyro for an imp, it's not too terrible a loss for me. But a sworded imp for a pyro and a soldier, say, I would consider a bad deal.
In a TF or TR match (especially TR), I usually aim to sword a necro at some point as part of my gameplan. A helmed sworded necro ususally forces a jar, since you never get close enough for the spy or heavy to go to work.
In the CL and DW match I'm more ambivalent. 20/20 units are hard for +3 necros to deal with, and the grenadier and archer directly compete with the necro in the range 3 space, and have the advantage of splash/damage as well. Still, if the DW has committed to gunner play, sworded necros can be useful. Necros are also excellent in the SL matchup, due to phantoms. Having phantoms to block provides the exception to SL being able to kill anything in their territory with combos - those guys are PESKY. Having said that, sworded imps are also very valuable because of the shadow - necros do not kill shadows. Period.
I've recently started experimenting with upgraded necros, and they seem to be yielding the same results as any other DE unit. I believe the key to victory as DE is to vary your upgraded units, because none of them are useless in combat and all have different abilities.
Successfully scaled back my game count, resuming normal play. :)
I'll be back to helping train new players when school gets out. :)