Dark Elves Overpowered? Underpowered?
Ok so currently i have been playing a lot of people playing the dark elves. I never check out the leader boards. So everything i am saying is just on experience. But I think they are overpowered. One reason i say that is because the void monk is impossible to kill! And they do splah damage, move 3 tiles. The people i see use them for hit and run. Or if they are going for crystal kills they just put them on a gem tile. Anyway there is nothing i can do to defend myself. So i propose a way to change this because like me i find this really annoying. So there strength as a team is is to get better as the game progresses. And there weakness should be they suck at the beginning. But they don't. Here is what i propose. (i am now starting to use paragraphs!)
They decrease the health of void monks to 650. But don't worry it gets better. Since the void monk is like the definition of hit and run. (mobile, splash damage) So there loss of hp wont matter because I propose that 10% of life leech goes to max hp I mean right now they start off like any other team.
I am playing a game where i am shaolin (picked random) and i am playing dark elves of course. So this game the player with dark elves starts the game with 3 ap. He spawns his void monk moves him up 3 tiles and he has a necromancer. I start off with 2 monks and a medic. So then he gets his void monk on a gem tile. Then he gets his necro upgraded. So i did a hit and run but i went back to block my crystal. Then he attacks the other cystal. So then i put my other monk in front of my crystal because i couldnt kill either the necro or the void monk. Then he kills one of my void monks kills him and makes a phantom. Then i spawn a poisoner i poisened the necro and retreated because i needed the poisoner to kill the necro. So then he kills my last monk turns him into a phantom. I kill the necro dont think i stomped. He then makes his phantom kill my already wounded cystal and destroys it.
I already know that the shaolin is still getting upgraded but i mean i think this is more fair. And it adds to the effects of the dark elves getting better overtime. Then it can actually allow the opponent to kill the void monk.
That wasnt what i am getting at. Did you read my example? I am saying that it should be hard for the dark elves team should be strong at late game but at the cost of weak at the beginning. But the dark elves are still good at the beginning so... I think thats kind of lame.
So because you had one bad game against DE they are op. mayhaps you're just not very good? Bad draws vs good draws and bad strats vs good strats cause lopsided games. DE are pretty balanced.
Facepalm... This is not what i am getting at lol. Ok this is where i am at... I am not saying they are good, bad, overpowered or underpowered. I am saying that my version of void monk i think is better. And this is not based off one game i have played many games with them and many games against them. And i realized it is very hard to kill them. Besides what difference does it make if it is off one game... It seems that's all people look at. It was just an example. Although thats what made me think about it. I think it would be more fun playing with them as much as against them with the new void monk. I always try to look both sided about things even if it may not come across that way. Anyway my point is that my new void monk evens out the gameplay. It can be both weak and powerful.
It sounds like you just need more practice against DE. Better yet as Blobertson stated, play as DE to better learn their weaknesses.
In the example you gave it sounds like you reacted very defensively. Sometimes the best defense is a strong offense; give your opponent something to worry about.
Why not deploy the poisoner earlier and use her as a deterrent? She's the strongest Shaolin unit and can easily take out a void monk.
First of all whats wrong with my void monk. Second of all does it matter if its based off of one game? Lastly my void monk would probably lessen the odds of good/bad start. Why dont people just critique my ideas before me. Like have you even considered my idea? Or did you just assume its a bad idea?
In the example you gave it sounds like you reacted very defensively. Sometimes the best defense is a strong offense; give your opponent something to worry about.
Why not deploy the poisoner earlier and use her as a deterrent? She's the strongest Shaolin unit and can easily take out a void monk.
I agree i do play pretty defensively but i knew that attacking a dark elf is pointless unless you kill him because they will just life leech you back. And i didnt want my poisoner to die. Anyway want is there weakness? And i havnt played that well of dark elves players but i am not clue less with them.
Sorry Ninja -- it's a bad idea.
DE are, in fact a slow team, and crippling the Void Monks early would take away any semblance of an early tank. Furthermore, 10% of life leach equates to 3.3% of damage dealt (or 6.6% with soul stone). This means that each vanilla Void Monk would have to deal over 4,500 damage just to get back to their current HP levels. It's a bad solution to a nonexistent problem.
so you would want 10% damage done to in turn increase vm hp? I'm gonna go with no. Vm is the "tank" of DE which is why it gets the resistances. It doesn't have the range or the damage to merit 650 hp. So basically I'm just saying its a horrible idea.
DE are, in fact a slow team, and crippling the Void Monks early would take away any semblance of an early tank. Furthermore, 10% of life leach equates to 3.3% of damage dealt (or 6.6% with soul stone). This means that each vanilla Void Monk would have to deal over 4,500 damage just to get back to their current HP levels. It's a bad solution to a nonexistent problem.
Lol i didnt realize how low that is. I meant damage at first... Actually im unsure what i meant, but with them doing splash i expect a lot of damage done with them... So i think maybe 50% to 25% should do the trick. Like i said i speak soley on experience, but i dont think the hp of void monk slows the team down very much. And if the void monk survives long enough. I do think that the void monk is essential for them but i think they can hold off until he void monk is back to 800 hp. And after that the void monk will be unbeatable. But it also makes the opponent able to kill him. But i appreciate the feedback. Besides i love making new ideas. And if no one like this one ill just come up with another.
so you would want 10% damage done to in turn increase vm hp? I'm gonna go with no. Vm is the "tank" of DE which is why it gets the resistances. It doesn't have the range or the damage to merit 650 hp. So basically I'm just saying its a horrible idea.
Even if you can get it all back and more? I understand it being the tank. I can understand why people don't like this idea, same problem with the wraith. It starts off low. Even if it can become unstoppable. But unlike the wraith its the monk gains hp by life leech. If it was actually anybody but the void monk i would say no. Because he does splash. I always put on soul stone on him because he is always the most profitable. I mean at times he does 100+ on life leech. And with 50% of life leech he gains 50 hp per turn so in 3 turns he has 150 hp back so he would actually go back to 800 and higher. But you would have to be kind of lucky to get that much.
Man, I wish VMs were unstoppable. I wish.
My guess is, you're leaving units in a "T". Everyone that gets wrecked by VMs, does this.
Don't do this.
It sounds like he was Crystal rushing and you didn't contest control of the assult square. You not shouldn't oughta not done that.
Void Monks are fine, save a scroll and don't stand in a T.
I've been playing for close to a year now, and I always go random. From what I've seen, DE is just fine. VM at +3 is a beast, but can be dealt with accordingly. One method is to scroll with a high attack unit (Archer, Ninja, Impaler, Annihilator, Poisoner), while the other method is to stop them before they can build up.
800 hp even with 20/20 resists can be handled. Early aggression against a VM is the best. Say you attack with a Necro. He does 160 damage per hit from 3 range away. You move into range and attack 4 times for a total of 640 damage. VM is left with 160 damage. If the VM moves up attacks 3 times and retreats, he'll leave the Necro with 200 hp and restored his hp to 565 (135x3). Necro can counter for a 3-hit turn leaving him with 85 hp and restoring his hp to 350 or so. Sure, the VM can kill stomp on the next turn but that leaves him dangerously low on hp and an easy snipe by any other unit on your team.
Obviously things change with Soul Stones, Rune Helms, and so forth but the point is to not be afraid of a VM. Get in it's face and put the pressure on him. Leech Life is great, but the returns aren't great without Soul Stones equipped. Either pressure him early or pocket a scroll and trade units to wipe him out.
But above all, keep experimenting and playing! You'll eventually get better at dealing with VM pressure.
I think the issue here is not so much with what you are proposing, but that you are combining a proposal with the statement that there is a current problem. You also acknowledge that you dont have a ton of experience with the various match-ups.
No one jumps on people for making unit proposals generally, but when you start with the premise that its going to make things better because there is a problem, then your going up against people's experience, often very extensive. There is also a ton of data available at the League on how much various teams win against other teams.
So a post that says "I'm having trouble with this aspect of playing/playing against X faction" is a better first step for a newish player than saying there is a problem, here is how to fix it.
I think the issue here is not so much with what you are proposing, but that you are combining a proposal with the statement that there is a current problem. You also acknowledge that you dont have a ton of experience with the various match-ups.
No one jumps on people for making unit proposals generally, but when you start with the premise that its going to make things better because there is a problem, then your going up against people's experience, often very extensive. There is also a ton of data available at the League on how much various teams win against other teams.
So a post that says "I'm having trouble with this aspect of playing/playing against X faction" is a better first step for a newish player than saying there is a problem, here is how to fix it.
+1 All of this.
With whipped cream and a cherry on top.
Agreed there is no need to nerf Void Monks and as some of the regulars suggested play some DE and you'll see how easy for some teams it's to kill a fully upgraded VM.
+1 All of this.
With whipped cream and a cherry on top.
No joke, I was 100% legitimately thinking the exact same thing O_o
DE is perfectly positioned in my eyes :)
I would agree with all of you unless i made this. But since i did i am backing this up one last time, hopefully this will be the convert you. Ok first of all my slight hp reduction means nothing because unless your in a tight situation or any other predicament would you lose your void monk with the hp reduction. 2nd of all if you even attack an enemy just alittle would you get enough hp to withstand another attack, if you are careful. 3rd of all most of my games im losing to the dark elves is because of the beginning. Without a medic your screwed because you cant kill the void monk with it being a hit and run vampire tank that also does splash damage. Can over run your offense pretty easily. Unless you are prepared. Plus dark elves excel at late game so basically its a lose lose. I am not saying that the dark elves are overpowered or underpowered. I agree with you dark elves are balanced. What i am saying is i think my new void monk is actually a cooler improved SUBSTITION to the current void monk. I mean the poisoner fully upgrader isnt that easy to kill? I cant imagine the void monk being much different.
Let it go, Ninja.
At 650 HP, the suddenly frail VMs would get 2-shot by 450 damage units and 3-shot by 300 damage units, making them pretty much useless for blocking duties. You are losing to DE because you waste your scrolls and burst damage opportunities, and you don't think about your opponent's response possibilities well enough (and you know that I speak from experience!). In other words, you just need to prepare better. Get the best physical damage-dealer on your team out. Buff that unit up and put somewhere safe that can still threaten the VM if he advances too far. And for the love of jeebuz, stop wasting your scrolls on reversible KOs or vanilla units.
I told you i was done... No more. And trip in the beginning it doesnt matter how i waste my scrolls. Its the end. Besides you dont know if i still waste my scrolls. (i would like to think i grew out of that stage) and yes if it wasnt the 4th round it wouldve been different. There was no chance even if i couldve prepared my monk and medic that i could take out a void monk. Besides once it began there was no stopping.
You still don't get it. You don't always HAVE to take out the Void Monk immediately. Avoid clumping your units together (to eliminate splash), and start deploying units and equipment to safe locations. If he insists on solo attacks with a lone void monk, eventually you are going to have a whole army of units out, with burst-damage items and other tricks ready. THEN you strike back and he finds himself with one less Void Monk and absolutely nothing deployed as backup.
And yes, it ABSOLUTELY matters if you waste your scrolls or other key items in the beginning.
All i had at my disposal was a poisoner that i didnt want turned into a phantom and a windblade and maybe a medic. And the others on the board. And about the scroll i meant in a game where i am going to lose basically a full crystal on round 8 or whatever it wouldnt matter how i use it i am going to lose either way. But i do appreciate your advice... I shouldve tried for better units.
Honestly, that's actually a perfect SL draw for taking on a solo uber-VM. Tag the VM with your Monk to apply the -25% debuff. Get your Poisoner out to a safe corner, throw another unit or two around her for defense, and park the healer somewhere in range (but not splashable with Poisoner). If he insists on coming after you with a single VM, he will lose it, and no matter what happens that guy is crippled for the rest of the game from your Monk debuff. Think of it this way -- once your monk nails that VM, it's as if the VM started with 600 health! That's even worse than your 650 health revision, and it can never be removed. =D
Aside from what's already been mentioned--nobody likes class balance arguments that grow from having a personal stake in some race--I do think that DE is one of the trickier races to play, and that also makes them tricky to play against unless you know what to look for.
DE's ability to control the game is heavily based on some subtle things that beginners might not even notice. Most importantly, DE have far more permanent HP upgrades than any other race (6 armors, 2 potions, 2 harvests, and Wraith grows). They have to get value out of these to win, and they have a limited number of opportunities to get certain units over key HP thresholds. For example, in DE vs. DE, the first upgraded Impaler with over 900 HP can be extremely important--but if the other player is cognizant that it's the focal point of the game, they can play around it. Similar in other matchups, but the exact unit tends to depend on situation. When a DE gets key units upgraded and an army out to support them, they can be close to unstoppable, but they are very fragile if the opponent keeps their development disrupted throughout the whole game.
Playing against them, I'd keep a few things in mind.
1) A DE "hero" unit's biggest weakness is that they can't afford to lose it. DW and Tribe can do so much damage with one explosive attack from an upgraded unit that they'll sacrifice the unit to decimate your army. DE tends not to do this, as most of their threats are single-target, and can mostly only make plays that don't risk the life of the hero unit. In particular, the upgraded unit often can't make stomps on his own without being left in a vulnerable spot. So the most important defense is not defense at all, but rather [u]having something on the board which threatens to kill the unit if they play too aggressively with it[u].
2) Corollary: Don't use both your scrolls against DE. Just don't. If you use your second scroll, it has to be in a position that leaves them so far behind that they're likely to resign immediately (or may as well do so). Even taking out two +2/+3 units early in the game isn't necessarily an ideal use of two scrolls. Because that's an open door to suddenly have a 1000+ HP Void Monk or Impaler start tearing you apart with impunity. With proper positioning of your units on the board, a scroll in hand can keep a very scary DE force completely pacified.
I didn't click on that the first time. I wish I hadn't this time. >.>
many good players here just telling you that void monk doesn't need to be changed, the way you play against them does. you are free to have your opinion on a void monk that starts slower and that u think would work best thats fine and thats not a problem, but you're not going to "convert" people who have their own opinions about it
"But I think they are overpowered. One reason i say that is because the void monk is impossible to kill!"
"I am not saying that the dark elves are overpowered or underpowered. I agree with you dark elves are balanced."
plain and simple as blobertson said, try using the void monk like its being used against you, you will find ways to defend against it and kill it if ur playing a good player with experience. the only reason u posted this was because u havent learned yet how to effectively play against DE/the void monk and from playing a bunch of DE opponents recently and not getting great hands with healers so they(void monks) are overpowered in your eyes in the early game as well as late game, so u suggest that they start weaker, you got a very negative response because many of us are skilled, experienced players that don't see void monk as overpowered because we have learned how to beat them, try going in with a void monk very early urself and see that decent opponents find answers to that
Lol how did you find that trip. That should be my new theme song.
Play as DE and people will show you how to kill +3 VMs.