Council vs tf2: extremely lopsided
I'm not sure how much this has been discussed but I would to like to point out an observation I have made from a decent amount of play time. First off let me say that I don't think any one team is too overpowered, some match-ups favor certain teams obviously but in general I think there are a very small handful of balance issues that could be addressed. The one I want to talk about is council v.s. tf2. This match-up is absolutely disgusting. Tf2 seems like it was made specifically to destroy council.
For one, council is almost entirely physically based, both defensively and offensively (more offensively though). Tf2 has 3 phenomenal magical attackers (pyro, demo man, and soldier) who are all able to hit the councils primary defense (knight) hard. Tf2 also has jarate meaning council had to spread the upgrades around or Tf2 will just drop a jarate on a fully kitted archer making her effectively useless. The Council loves piling equipment on its archers and ninja, but jarate means doing this will usually result in a dead and stomped archer and council missing 3 upgrades.
Second is tf2s free ap actions. Tf2s defining trait hits council hard. Against other teams council can use the threat of an archer to scare the enemy into not stomping fallen units, then using their phenomenal revives (cleric bringing hero's up for 400 is amazing), but tf2 rarley leaves fallen units unstomped due to their racial and the fact that tf2 units are more expendable and can be more easily sacrificed to secure a stomp means that the council has far less opportunities to take advantage of their potion and their racial.
Third, Tf2 hates AoE and ranged stomps (a ranged stomp greatly limits the effectiveness of respawn tokens). And what do you know, the councils AoE and ranged stomp are both lack luster compared to other teams (although it is nice that they have both long range AoE and Stomp which is more than dwarves and tribe and dark elves can say). The wizard can be situationally devastating if used by someone who knows what their doing, but in general it is a mediocre unit that can be easily countered and prepared for meaning you have to rely on fireballs for heavy AoE damage and ranged stomp, unfortunately those fireballs go quick and when you no longer have that threat Tf2 players can play much more aggressively and overwhelm council.
Lastly, the council has the best single target attacking unit in the game, the archer, we all know this. But aside from the archer council doesn't have very high offensive potential. The knight is awful at attacking, the wizard is mediocre, and the ninja is pretty good but easily killed and stomped by a good Tf2 player. Usually this is offset by how phenomenal the archer is, but Tf2 has a 100% fool proof counter to the archer, the spy. The spy can't be targeted at range meaning the archer is almost useless against him. Council absolutely has to take out both spy's just for the ability to USE their main unit, meaning Tf2 players can offer incredibly lopsided trades for a spy, or just use the spy and sanvich to kill healers, archers and ninjas with ease. Council can use fireballs ninjas and wizards to deal with the spy, but none of these are optimal. The only unit the council has that can actually go toe to toe with a spy is a knight due to him being able to live 2 back stabs with a full kit. But as mentioned above the knight is abysmal at offense and also as mentioned above the Tt2 easily deals with upgraded knights through pyros, jarate, soldiers, etc...
All in all, winning with council against Tf2 is an uphill battle the whole way. In a future patch I would love to see the wizard get a buff, something like changing his chain lightning from 100%-66%-50% to something like 100%-80%-66%. Or maybe giving him 250 damage. 300 is probably a bit too much but 250 would make him actually somewhat of a viable candidate for rune metal. This would obviously help the council in general but I think it would help them against Tf2 the most, as Tf2s glaring weakness is AoE.
So there you go, this is just an opinion but it's an opinions based on experience. Like I said I don't think this game is unbalanced at all, I believe this is one of the only truly lopsided match ups. Love the game and keep up the great work Robot.
Its not an entirely equal match-up, but its within the realm of reason considering that perfect balance is not achievable.
Try to be more aggressive early before TF2 gets set up. Might get a lead before TF2 gets their healer. And you might want to buff up a wizard; they are better against TF2 than against most teams. Dont save those scrolls and fireballs for a rainy day...TF2 has no super-units, so you can burn those for sufficient unit, positional and time gains.
Honestly, random Council guys give me trouble sometimes (for a period of time anyway). Sure, part of it is that they get 5ap. But a large part of it is that they havent had the over-aggression beaten out of them yet. And of course, pretty much any price to take out a TF2 healer.
I think you are drastically understating the effectiveness of modded wizards in this matchup. Forget about swording your archers and ninja -- it's generally overkill. Try going full wizard and see how things go.
The Council loves piling equipment on its archers and ninja, but jarate means doing this will usually result in a dead and stomped archer and council missing 3 upgrades.
Fully upgrading archers is situational. I find it's generally better to have a fully armoured knight in front of a runed archer than putting all your eggs in one basket. The only exception is late game when your opponent has spent their high damage spells and she can rein supreme or very early game before the opponent has time to react, but the latter carries its fair share of risk.
Like Trip said, in this matchup fully buffed wizards are more dangerous than archers. Also, if you're going for a TKO, you're playing to TF2's strenghts, so keep that in mind.
With council I aim for a crystal win but if you can kill a medic and/or an engineer, you can win by TKO. I've also had some good results with ninja bombs for taking out engineers and medics. TF2 is a lot easier to defeat without their engineer upgrades.
Like Trip said, in this matchup fully buffed wizards are more dangerous than archers. Also, if you're going for a TKO, you're playing to TF2's strenghts, so keep that in mind.
With council I aim for a crystal win but if you can kill a medic and/or an engineer, you can win by TKO. I've also had some good results with ninja bombs for taking out engineers and medics. TF2 is a lot easier to defeat without their engineer upgrades.
I've literally never had anyone prioritize targetting my engineers. It does make some sense for the more armored teams (not tribe or TF2) to do it, but the problem is that one is enough for TF2, and if you dont get both, you have traded something to bag a low value unit. So I cant see spending anything other than say an ungeared knight to bag the first one.
I've literally never had anyone prioritize targetting my engineers. It does make some sense for the more armored teams (not tribe or TF2) to do it, but the problem is that one is enough for TF2, and if you dont get both, you have traded something to bag a low value unit. So I cant see spending anything other than say an ungeared knight to bag the first one.
If you can get one without too much of a sacrifice, you can gain a substantial lead in tempo and even units. I've had several games where I've done this and my opponent resorted to dumping his deck looking for that second engineer. It can be a really good opportunity.
But you can also be unlucky and have your opponent have the second available, just something to consider.
Well I think in most games tf2 engineer can hardly be targeted. If you reli did kill th engineer after arduous journey to the heart of the fortress(that's where engineer usually is) you would be pretty much dead. One way to counter tf2 is reli aoe attack, and wizard is second to dwarve molotoves. Tf2 healing can't match up to the number of units you can damage and slowly some units will be abandoned. Patience is virtue. Make your opponent lose patience and you are assured a win.
The Council loves piling equipment on its archers and ninja, but jarate means doing this will usually result in a dead and stomped archer and council missing 3 upgrades.
Against TF2, even the sword is a waste. A naked ninja will kill any TF2 unit (except the heavy) in two hits. Add the sword, and it's still two hits, so you gain nothing. The only advantage is that you can kill the two heavies a little faster (but considering that it takes 1 AP to equip the sword, the net AP gain is only 1). The only other possibility is if you use the sword with the intention of improving the ninja's range attack, but that seems like a poor idea (better used on a wizard in that case, which will do AOE damage).
I've found that many people will burn a scroll to kill even a naked ninja. Then they have little left to deal with my other, tricked out units.
Agreed, I wasn't suggesting you should always equip the Ninja with a sword vs TF2. I was saying I rarely give the Ninja armour vs any team.
I understand that the giving the ninja a sword is a waste against tf2, and if spy's cant be controlled the archer shouldn't get all the swords either, I'm trying to say the councils undisputed best unit is the archer and the fact that tf2 has such a concrete counter to it puts council at a disadvantge from the get go. You still can, of course adjust by equipping wizards or knights etc, which shows the brilliance of this game.
... I'm trying to say the councils undisputed best unit is the archer and the fact that tf2 has such a concrete counter to it puts council at a disadvantge from the get go...
Against TF2, the Council's best unit is the wizard. The archer is useful, but you mainly need strong AOE to defeat TF2.
The archer two shoting 7 of the 9 tf2 units with a sword is quite useful.
I hate the give the wizard some credit...but against TF2, he may actually be sorta viable
A sworded wizard can deal aoe damage and shred a ton of TF2 units at the same time. I am usually forced to sword my wizard to deal with TF2.
This is really the only way I have been able to have success against good TF2 players.
The archer being useless against spies is only 2 out of tf2s 18 units. Shes just as good as usual against the other 16.
I wouldn't mind seeing Spies go down to 600 HP, it's extremely hard to open up any kind of attack path with them standing front and center. Having to burn a scroll to clear them out is unfavorable to say the least, but since they take four hits to drop it's either that or sac a rune metal.
Another hot tip: spies hate fire.
Trading an Inferno along with another unit (probably a wizard) is a fairly ruinous rate of exchange and leaves you without for stomping Medics, one of Councils few clear'ish paths for victory against tf2.
I use council win against TF2 by kill medics or focus attacking on crystal, depended on situation.
I still agree with this topic. It's quite hard to play council against TF2.
Trading an Inferno along with another unit (probably a wizard) is a fairly ruinous rate of exchange and leaves you without for stomping Medics, one of Councils few clear'ish paths for victory against tf2.
A bad rate of exchange only if the inferno is taking out nothing but that one spy. In my experience, the inferno is actually best used for mass KOs against TF2, rather than its usual "snipe & stomp" mechanism. Your mileage may vary, but I haven't found that route to be at all ruinous.
Yes, the TF2 team has four 650 HP units--the spies and the snipers. Both can really put huge pressure on the map and force you into unfavorable positions. But if these units are grouped up together, two well placed infernos can knock them out. Even better if the TF2 team is out of respawns.
if they use respawns on snipers and spies its good for you so if they do you should be happy.
But would a good player ever group up their spies an snipers against a council player wih both fireballs left?
Yes, the TF2 team has four 650 HP units--the spies and the snipers.
The scout also has 650 and if you can get one or both those buggers with a fireball on top of a spy and sniper or two, then it'll be a good day for council. The thing about the scout is they are extremely useful but no one will ever go out of their way to save one of them.
But would a good player ever group up their spies an snipers against a council player wih both fireballs left?
It's easy to say "don't clump your units together", but the reality is that often there is no other choice for TF2. This must be exploited, hence the value of wizards and infernos.
One thing to note, a fully armored wizard, who is then jarated, still takes 2AP to KO with Engy-buffed Pyros and Soldiers. That can mean the TF2 player doesn't have the AP to move, (move again?), jarate, attack, attack, and stomp. Or they have to sacrifice a bunch of their units your wizard just KOed, because they can't heal and stomp. With a Ninja and potion ready, you can rescue your wizard easily.
It's a small thing, but I've been on both sides of it before, and it can make a difference.
I'll also point out that TF2 has 2 jarates, and you've got a lot of gear. Make them choose between jarateing your armored knight or your runemetal archer, etc. Once the Jarate is gone, your units are much scarier, considering how fragile TF2 is.
But would a good player ever group up their spies an snipers against a council player wih both fireballs left?
It's easy to say "don't clump your units together", but the reality is that often there is no other choice for TF2. This must be exploited, hence the value of wizards and infernos.
I think it's this aspect of TF2 that makes them troublesome for Tribe. TF2 clumps without fear of Tribe AOE. It also makes it hard to get at their medics if yoy can't (cheaply) punch a hole in the meat wall.
I think it's this aspect of TF2 that makes them troublesome for Tribe. TF2 clumps without fear of Tribe AOE. It also makes it hard to get at their medics if yoy can't (cheaply) punch a hole in the meat wall.
Agreed -- this is a big hurdle for Tribe against TF2. That said, if a Chieftain can actually manage to find a decent place to swing his sword, those TF2 units go down like wet tissue.
Maybe a slight buff to the knight could alleviate these issues, perhaps a 25 damage bonus when the knight hits a unit and it is not knocked back (i.e. no space behind it, whether it's a border or crystal or unit). This would greatly increase the knight's effectiveness against spies, while not particularly overpowering it in other situations. The downside is that knights would then be able to 4-shot a singly upgraded DE unit (and most spiked tribe units), further tipping that other unbalanced matchup.
A bad rate of exchange only if the inferno is taking out nothing but that one spy. In my experience, the inferno is actually best used for mass KOs against TF2, rather than its usual "snipe & stomp" mechanism. Your mileage may vary, but I haven't found that route to be at all ruinous.
That would be the ideal of course, but linging up a mass KO is an outside chance at best if he positions well and if you don't land a crippling blow you're left with no way to stomp medics.
In any case, my point is that the Spy acts too well as ablocking unit against the Council. He can almost do the job of a knight, requiring 5 AP to clear in addition to the sack of the stomping unit when positioned well. It just doesn't seem like the intent of cloak should be to make Spies into a tanking unit.
Nice summary, I ran into a few of the above in one of my recent matches.