Add slow combo point to web spinner? ...
I was talking to Juicebags about the problem with not having slow available on the warmage. And both of us came up with the same concluison. Why not just allow the web spinner to add the slow combo point affliction on it's application.
It makes sense, the acid wall already has it. The spikes already have it. The sorceress already has a valid alternative (the acid wall). It would allow the war mage to become slightly more viable for combo's and even the playing field.
It would not in any way affect current game play for those who do not high score; and it may even shake up the high scores a little bit. (something that's drastically needed)
I thought I'd make a thread for discussion about weather this is a good idea; or if there are any better current alternatives that anyone can think of.
I agree with Wyatan adding slow to webspinner would make it op since everyone is using it always. It seems logical to just add slow to tar but tar gives you way too much flow control compared to anything sorceress has, so I vote for new trap in DLC with slow (maby give warmage trap with slow and sorc some flow controll trap).
Very solid points all the way around. Adding slow to tar would indeed make the sorc unplayable. We really do need some other way to apply slow with the warmage for certain though. he is way too young to retire :)
Just give tar an upgrade to go on the ceiling and drip down at the rate that an acid wall would fire off.
Just give tar an upgrade to go on the ceiling and drip down at the rate that an acid wall would fire off.
Problem with upgrading tar is that it would be so OP that no one that is in to high scoring would ever play the Sorc again. Would have to be something else for certain. If the Sorc has to use a damage trap to apply it, then the Warmage should have to also to keep things in balance.
Wyatan suggested something inconsistent as to not make the Warmage the dominant character and just level things out. Maybe an Acid Chute that would have to be triggered to fire? I hate to use the haymaker because of the whole knocking things around and out of my traps bit, but that may make the most sense.
I still like the idea of the webs for balance. The only thing it would really do to the Sorc is eliminate the use of the acid sprayer. The trap is already a requirement for just about any killbox thats after a x13. Yea it would make it a must for high scoring, but isnt the tar for the warmage and the sprayer for the sorc a must have right now? And as with any game, nothing is OP if everyone can use it.
The only reason for the Sorceress's dominance of the high-scoring scene is the Acid Sprayer.
Eliminate the need for the Acid Sprayer, and you eliminate the need for the Sorceress altogether.
The same applies to the warmage. Its a left right scenario - to make one viable you have to dislodge the other. And by adding another acid trap - to be effective it must have x2 combo; a combination of hit and slow. And it will likely knock the sorc off the list. The sorcs dominance is only there due to the warmages nigh impossible ability to add a viable slow combo point. Add that anywhere and your argument is just as solid. The moment he gets it the dominant force shifts.
Alternatively - the other option is to release some new traps for each individual and allow both to have acid and tar. The balance of which is causing a massive discrepancy. Warmage needs slow but has too many strong tools and sorc needs tar but has the combo advantage.
Also; I disagree that adding the extra combo point to the web spinner will eliminate the sorc. The acid sprayer is still by far the best wall trap for the kill box. I have never seen it done with an arrow wall. And there really isn't anything to replace it for its low damage and excellent speed and range.
And there really isn't anything to replace it for its low damage and excellent speed and range.
Hmm... Tar ?
And there really isn't anything to replace it for its low damage and excellent speed and range.
Hmm... Tar ?
And leave an empty space on the wall? I suppose that could work. Except as we both know tar can loose its combo point if pushed too far and you can't really put it in place of the springs and steam traps. So it does make for a complex problem no? Right now we use Acid stacked over Grinder but without acid you'd have to put web spinner in I guess. I still think sorc would have the advantage. Warmage would take SOME maps but the sorc still has the 2 wall trap alternative.
The only reason for the Sorceress's dominance of the high-scoring scene is the Acid Sprayer.
Eliminate the need for the Acid Sprayer, and you eliminate the need for the Sorceress altogether.
Well I agree but disagree, imagine that! Obviously the acid sprayer rounds out the perfect combo generating killbox. What I am saying is eliminating the need for the acid sprayer doesnt eliminate the sorc. It allows people to play who they want by balancing the 2 in regard to the slow affliction. Currently the only maps where the warmage has a shot is if the sprayer isn't an option. Now I do agree that adding slow to the spinner would make tar an issue, fine, give the Warmage some much needed love as the Sorc is currently the OP combo generator and the Warmage has not had his day at the top! IMO the sorc will always be op just because of the feather fall vs the double jump. Cheetah has seen me jump in the drink many times after logging on to my Warmage after playing the Sorc too much :)
My suggestion with the web spinner is more to shake things up on the leaderboards for all of us. Rogotin has heard me say many times that I wish a new affliction would be introduced in a dlc. I really am in love with this game and hope that something gets introduced to add more replayablility for all of us. I even have no problem with revisiting all the current maps with a new strategy, I would love the opportunity if it presents itself.
The only way to really balance the 2 would be to make all traps available to both characters. Im just hoping to see something new!
Placing the Web Spinner on the wall would be the ideal placement. There are quite a few maps where the Web's placement is far from optimal, and that would come as an added bonus.
As for killboxes where the Tar combo point is lost... only Caldera comes to mind, and even there the killbox may actually be tweaked to fit in a comboing Tar. Ironically enough, the other two maps where that's the case are Chasm and Hard Climb, and in both cases the Acid Sprayer doesn't fit either... so the Warmage gets chosen. For Tar.
Steam to Push to Spring setups might also fall into that category, but not many of those left : Big Valleys, Servant Entrance, and that's it.
Balancing both Warmage and Sorceress, while keeping them differentiated, would indeed be difficult. But I don't really see the point at aiming for any less.
I even have no problem with revisiting all the current maps with a new strategy, I would love the opportunity if it presents itself.
That's the point. :)
I'd like the balancing to provide the opportunities for new killboxes. Not just the same, with Tar instead of Acid Sprayer, the Warmage instead of the Sorceress.
That's why I'm suggesting having a look at ceiling traps...
The ideal target situation would be for the Warmage to be the answer on some maps, the Sorceress on others, and not because the same killbox is slightly more efficient with one character than the other, but because they bring different solutions to the table.
Balancing both Warmage and Sorceress, while keeping them differentiated, would indeed be difficult. But I don't really see the point at aiming for any less.
Agreed! Robot did a fantastic job by responding to the community with the addition of the guardian trinket. We need to generate some thoughts for the warmage slow and hope that they respond in a similar manner.
That's what this thread is for. Unfortunately you have to factor in a few things.
The first is to make it work the warmage needs a two hit trap. Hit and slow. If you don't do this you achieve nothing. But, adding this on any form reduces the sorcs play because of the way it works.
The second is adding ANY trap with 2 hits (applying a slow) has to be completely situational to make the sorc still viable; or work in a different manor entirely.
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Edit:
Of course there is another alternative that hit me. A floor trap that works akin to the scorcher except it is a square block that lifts up out of the ground and is a pipe that has 4 vents that fire acid one square outwards in all 4 directions (no diagonals). You could upgrade it to have slow or a 2 square reach. Anything on top of the trap when it triggers can get launched upwards (like steam trap) causing a similar effect to the floor scorcher.
This trap covers a few bases. It gives a new inovative trap to work with. It gives another (somewhat gumbier) steam trap kind of like what scorcher is to spring trap. And it covers the 'missing combo point' that warmage has without jepordising (hopefully) the usefulness of the acid wall. The reason its 4 sides is because it would be an acid style trap and would apply slow (not fire) and would likely have a slightly longer reset time than the scorcher.
Alternatively another option would be a 1/4 turn sprinkler that you direct that pops up and sprays 3 squares and drops back down. Upgrade for slow or upgrade for full 360 rotation. (kind of like haymaker)
Nice ideas. :)
But I still believe a new "Slow" trap should be a ceiling trap, ideally a physics trap. And, to preserve balance, that it shouldn't be as reliable as the Acid Sprayer (either with longer reset or, preferably, with a % chance to apply Slow).
And we've also to face the increasing possibility that no further DLC is coming our way. Any balancing would have to be done with altering the existing traps.
In that regard, apart from the suggestions I've already made, there are a few other possibilities :
1) Try and make Spikes more usable.
Spikes have several issues :
- They deal all of their damage at once. The Acid Sprayer also does too much damage for comboing, but Physics Traps allow mobs to escape the brunt of that damage. No such luck here.
- They trigger too slow to be combined with Push Trap or even Spike Wall. Now, that slow trigger is necessary for the trap itself, to allow it to hit more orcs.
- They're a floor trap, and floor is crowded real estate in a Warmage killbox.
Not much to be done about the last point, but the first two points could be dealt by turning Spikes in a multi-hit trap (say 3 hits for instance), each for a fraction of the damage currently dealt.
2) Alter the Alchemist Satchel so that taking the "Slow" upgrade turns the bombs into "Gas bombs" with an increased AoE, but very low damage.
I like the idea of scaling back the damage of satchel at level 0. Like the blunderbuss, it seems to be one of those weapons that doesn't dish enough damage to be useful for survival/5-skulling (actually, it's pretty powerful but takes so much mana as to make it nearly unusable), and doesn't fit the bill for high scoring either. The only time it may work for high scoring is in endless mode past wave 15.
Probably keep level 3 the same, but gradually lower the power of the other ones, so you need maybe 3-4 vials to kill a light orc at level 0. Haven't tried the DOT upgrade, but maybe that could be increased to balance for those looking for more kill power.
I don't think it would be a such good idea. :(
The Web Spinner is already an invaluable comboing tool, adding Slow to it would simply make it OP. Why not add Slow to Tar, as long as we're at it ? ;)
Adding Slow to the Web Spinner would make the Acid Sprayer redundant, and wouldn't make the Warmage competitive, it would simply make him dethrone the Sorceress. The fact the Sorceress has a bigger mana pool is irrelevant, since Tar makes mana essentially a non-issue.
The objective should be to make the Warmage competitive, and also, ideally, to promote different killboxes.
Since Sorceress killboxes are wall-based, and ceilings currently essentially ignored (the odd Zapper, and Web Spinners as a substitute for Tar), I believe a ceiling trap should get Slow.
And it shouldn't be too reliable, or again, thanks to Tar, the Warmage would simply replace the Sorceress as the high-scoring character, instead of competing.
Ideally, the solution should come in the form of new physics ceiling trap through a DLC.
Barring that, I'd say a good start would be :
- Add Slow to the Dart Spitter : its description already leads player to believe that's the case anyway
- or : Replace the Haymaker's stronger throw upgrade which is silly anyway with a Slow upgrade.
That may not be enough since for instance both have longer resets that mean they won't be synchronized with every push, but that's the idea : provide the Warmage with an alternative source of Slow, but not reliable enough that Tar would simply make him rule again.
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